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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | Morant61 | 130926 | ||
Greetings Jelkins! You wrote: "Before Jesus ascended, he told the 11 Apostles to wait in Jerusalem for the power. Earlier he had said he would send the Comforter to bring to their minds everything he had told them and guide them into all truth. Key: This promise is to no one but the Apostles." Yet, notice how the phrase 'gift of the Holy Spirit' is used in Acts. Acts 10:45 says, "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles." Yet, Acts 2:38-39 says, "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.'" Scripture simply doesn't support your position that the Holy Spirit was just for the Apostles. Further, you said: "Acts 2:38, the gift of the HS comes to us after baptism in water. See also Acts 19:1-5." Yet, in Acts 10, the gift of the Holy Spirit came prior to baptism in water. Apparently, water baptism is not necessary in the sense that you think. Also, you wrote: "The example of the conversion of Cornelius’ household is consistent with all other examples of conversions in Acts. Water baptism was commanded by Jesus and obedience to the command is necessary for salvation. (At risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ll quote Heb 5:9 again, “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him…” and I’ll call to attention II John 9.)" Yet, the example of Cornelius doesn't occur in the order you profess. They were saved first, then baptized as a result of their salvation - not as a condition of their salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | jelkins | 132074 | ||
Tim, hope you didn’t give up on me. It doesn’t make any difference what I think or what I feel – or what you think or feel. It does matter what the text says. I read in Acts 19 that believers did not have the Holy Spirit (HS) until they were baptized in the name of Jesus. They received the Spirit when Paul laid his hands on them. I read in Acts 2:38 that the Holy Spirit was promised after baptism. I read in verses where baptism and salvation are both mentioned that salvation comes after baptism; e.g., “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mk 16:16)”; “be baptized…for remission of sins” (Acts 2:38); “be baptized, and wash away your sins” (Acts 22); “…because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts…” (Gal 4:6) – and I paraphrase, after being born again (of the water and the spirit) you get the Spirit. You misquote me. I didn’t say “the HS is just for the Apostles.” All Christians have the HS through the written Word, which is full of power. (Rom 1:16, Heb 4:12) I restate that the promise of the Comforter/Counselor and the “power from on high” was only for the Apostles. Even the occurrence at Cornelius household was for benefit of the Apostles, to show them that Gentiles had received “repentance to life.” Acts 11:18. [Jesus’ promise that the Comforter would bring to mind everything he had said and would guide into all truth was not to Cornelius’ household.] The baptismal measure of the HS enabled the Apostles (1) to establish the church (as prophesied, to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles); (2) to confirm with miracles that their words were from God; (3) to maintain the integrity of the church by giving to the early Christians via laying on of their hands 9 miraculous gifts of the HS (1 Cor 12; Acts 8; Acts 19) (nobody got all 9 of the gifts) -- there is no indication anyone else had the power to pass the gifts on -- Stephen had to call the Apostles to do it (Acts 8); and (4) then to write the Bible through inspiration [the perfect (complete) knowledge and prophecy of 1 Cor 13]. The Apostles died. The miraculous abilities went away. Today, we have the HS through the inspired written Word. Paul says to Timothy in II Tim 3:16-17 that the scripture is all we need. He said he had not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). In Acts 1:15, the text says there were about 120 disciples in the upper room. In Acts 2, the text does not say all 120 received the baptism of the HS. Tracking the antecedent of the pronouns in Acts 2:1-4 leads to Acts 1:26. The pronouns “them” and “they” refer to Matthias and the eleven, and can be traced even further back to the 11 in Luke 24:49. John 13 - 17 is tells of Jesus’ interaction with the Apostles at their Passover Feast. To say the baptism of the HS was for all is to read into scripture something that is not there. I am charged with using scripture to make judgments about those today who claim to be Apostles, who claim to have received the baptism of the HS, who claim to have miraculous gifts of the HS, and who claim that God speaks to them personally. I read the qualifications for being an Apostle, one of which is to have been with Jesus from the beginning. I know HS baptism was a promise, to whom it was given, and what its manifestations were -- that it was not a command to obey. I don’t see anyone being raised from the dead. I know Paul told the Ephesians, “there is one baptism” – those who deny it is water baptism may be “wresting the scriptures to their own destruction.” And, as I read recently on this forum, Scripture tells us we must live by “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God,” and I cannot know the words He “spoke” to someone else. Since God is no respecter of persons, I deny that he speaks to anyone other than through the written Word (Heb 1:1). Concerning your last statement, Tim. The text of Acts 10 does not say what you say, that “they were saved first, then baptized as a result of their salvation – not as a condition of their salvation.” Sincere students of the Word can read in Acts 10 and 11 that Cornelius was to be saved by the words Peter spoke, they can read the words he spoke to command water baptism, and they can make an educated guess that his words did not include reference to HS baptism because its occurrence astonished him. There are many scriptures I know that indicate we are to obey God by being baptized in water as a condition of our salvation. There is no reason for me not to believe it was also a condition for Cornelius salvation. I truly do consider the points you make from the scripture, and I see more and more how you support the doctrine you teach, but I’ve not seen any text that cannot be interpreted to agree with the pattern I’ve shown here. Thanks to all who take time to read. May God’s word fall the honest and good hearts (Luke 8:15) J. Elkins |
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3 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | Morant61 | 132095 | ||
Greetings J. Elkins! It is good to hear back from you my friend. I had forgotten about this thread. I have posted so many times on this issue already, so I'll try to limit my comments. :-) You wrote: "The baptismal measure of the HS enabled the Apostles (1) to establish the church (as prophesied, to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles); (2) to confirm with miracles that their words were from God; (3) to maintain the integrity of the church by giving to the early Christians via laying on of their hands 9 miraculous gifts of the HS (1 Cor 12; Acts 8; Acts 19) (nobody got all 9 of the gifts) -- there is no indication anyone else had the power to pass the gifts on -- Stephen had to call the Apostles to do it (Acts 8); and (4) then to write the Bible through inspiration [the perfect (complete) knowledge and prophecy of 1 Cor 13]. The Apostles died. The miraculous abilities went away. Today, we have the HS through the inspired written Word. Paul says to Timothy in II Tim 3:16-17 that the scripture is all we need. He said he had not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27)." This is simply speculation my friend. There is not a single verse that limits the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. There is not a single verse that say the gifts would cease with the complete of the canon. In fact, Acts 2:38 specifically says of the gift of the Holy Spirit: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.'" Where does this passage say, 'This gift is for the Apostles only until they finish writing the Bible'? ;-) The text is quite clear that it is for 'all whom the Lord our God will call'. You also wrote: "To say the baptism of the HS was for all is to read into scripture something that is not there." Isn't that exactly what Acts 2:38-39 says? Yet, when the Cornelius example doesn't fit your theology, you insist that it had to have happened other than how it actually says in Scripture. The Scripture does not say that Cornelius repented, was baptized, and then received the gift of the Holy Spirit (per your understanding of Acts 2:38). Rather, it says that he received the gift of the Holy Spirit and was then baptized in water. As I pointed out in Scritpure, no one who is not a Christian can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, we can assume all we want about Cornelius, but the text is quite clear my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | jelkins | 133030 | ||
Post 1 of 3. Tim, couldn’t find 1000 chars to cut. In fact, I added! Mostly scripture quotes, though, which I wanted to leave in for ready reference. So, will reply in three parts. I speak carefully, lest I be found to misrepresent God’s word. I know that, according to James 3:1, those who assume to be teachers are subject to a stricter judgment. Can’t say more about Cornelius than what I’ve already posted recently. Will just have to leave the Forum readers with Acts chapters 10 and 11 and related passages, and let them judge whether or not I’ve spoken the truth. You say, “there is not a single verse that limits the Holy Spirit (HS) to the Apostles.” Even though readers are probably tired of this, I will post these words a 3rd time: In Acts 1:15, the text says there were about 120 disciples in the upper room. In Acts 2, the text does not say all 120 received the baptism of the HS. Tracking the antecedent of the pronouns in Acts 2:1-4 leads to Acts 1:26. The pronouns “them” and “they” refer to Matthias and the eleven, and can be traced even further back to the 11 in Luke 24:49. In John 14, Jesus promises the baptism of the HS to the Apostles at their Passover Feast. Nowhere have I said the HS is just for the Apostles (as you keep insisting), but I have said the baptismal measure of the HS and its attendant power was for them. Acts 8:18 and Acts 19 show the gifts of the HS were passed to others through the laying on of the Apostles hands. “And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money.” “And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them.’ In the New Testament, I see four levels of work done through man by the HS. 1) Jesus had the HS without measure. After His baptism, the Spirit descended on Him (Matt 3:16) . Col 2:9 says, “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38) The four gospels are full of descriptions of the HS working through the Christ. 2) The Apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), giving them remembrance of what Jesus had told them, guiding them into all truth, giving them power to preach the word, confirm the word with signs and wonders, establish the church, give spiritual gifts via laying on of their hands, and write scripture. Cornelius and household received the same manifestations of the Spirit, to show the Apostles that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews, but how could Jesus’ promise to “bring to remembrance and to guide into all truth” have been for Cornelius? The Kingdom came with power to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. The Kingdom did not come again at the time of Cornelius conversion, but it was extended to Gentiles. (Here I go, talking about Cornelius again!) 3) Members of the 1st century church received miraculous gifts of the HS from the laying on of the Apostles hands. Not sure if everyone received a gift, but text does indicate that no one got all 9 of the gifts (1 Cor 12:7-11.) Reason for these gifts was to “confirm the word” and maintain the integrity of the early church. First Cor 13 says these gifts would go away. 4) All Christians, universally, receive the gift of the HS, promised in Acts 2:38-39, reiterated in Acts 5:32, which says, “…And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the HS whom God has given to those who obey Him.” (Oops. Looks like we have to believe and then obey before we get the Spirit.) |
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5 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | Morant61 | 133034 | ||
Greetings Jelkins! It is always hard to figure out what to cut! ;-) Allow me to respond to your points my friend! a) The 120: There is nothing in the context that mandates that 'they' can only refer to the Apostles. It could also grammatically apply to the 'believers' and 'brothers' of Acts 1:15-16. So, this point really proves nothing. It is simply more speculation. :-) b) Baptimal measure of the Holy Spirit: Where is this phrase found in Scripture? More speculation? 2) Cornelius: Nothing in Acts 10 indicates that the out pouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit was a special circumstance simply designed to convince the Apostles. The text never says that at all. More speculation? 3) Gifts: There is no text that limits the reception of the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Holy Spirit to those who were 'layed hands' upon by the Apostles. There are certainly instances of this, but no specific restriction. You also wrote: "Reason for these gifts was to “confirm the word” and maintain the integrity of the early church." Yet, there is no Scripture that says this! This is simply more speculation! I'll deal with the ceasation of the gifts in one of your other posts my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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