Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Reformer Joe | 29422 | ||
Brian: Why did it take until 1943? --Joe! |
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2 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Brian.g | 29534 | ||
Joe As we see here on this forum, proper Biblical understanding and intrepretation requires proper guidance, that's all the Catholic Church was trying to provide, in our way of doing things. It was thought that, left on their own, the average person would not properly understand the Scripture, that it would cause more confusion than clarification and that it was the duty and the responsibility of the clergy to provide a proper, accurate and consistent interpretation - to be the teacher. Personally, I am glad that the Church enhanced the method of teaching the Bible by creating the study Bible and giving each person more freedom to study at their own pace, or in conjunction with clergy. Brian |
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3 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Reformer Joe | 29546 | ||
All I am saying is that this man by the name of Martin Luther came up with that idea centuries ago, and it wasn't too well-received then. You are absolutely correct that the RCC hierarchy thought that the "average person" must be told what Scripture taught. That is precisely why they burned people who tried to translate it into the language of the common man. One thing that is often misunderstood regarding the Reformation, by the way, has to do with a very good point you made in your post. Luther and the other Reformers did not subscribe to the idea of "every man for himself" in interpreting Scripture. They, too, recognized that error was certainly possible, as well as the value of the church in the corporate understanding of Scripture. But they realized that the entire church was a priesthood (1 Peter 2:8-9) and that those gifted as teachers were not necessarily the same group as the RCC clergy. Therefore, we again come to the essential point of disagreement that caused the RCC to hold the Bible hostage for so long: while the church interprets Scripture, what exactly is the church? I cannot accept that the contradictory pronouncements of the RCC hierarchy and the ever-evolving theology and "new revelation" is the infallible interpreter of the Word of God. In the RCC, the Bible must always ride side-saddle with tradition. --Joe! --Joe! |
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4 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Brian.g | 29557 | ||
Joe Why debate history. We all know the Church is conservative and sometimes, slow to move. And, like very other Church, it's imperfect. The Church constantly renews itself and hopefully, for the better. I agree with a lot of what Luther said, I just didn't like the way he handled the debate and I agree with a lot of what the Church said, but I don't like the way the Church handled the debate. Together they caused a major split in the Church - which caused Christian to be pitted against Christian. In reality, they were both right and they were both wrong. But the truth of the matter is, that it happened 500 years ago. And there ain't nothing I can do about it except move forward with people like you, where we work together to establish mutual respect and acceptance. And, together, in our own way - help guide people to Jesus and God. Because the truth of the matter is when Jesus returns - all Churches will cease to exist and all that will be left are those that have a proper relationship with Jesus and those that don't. If we can do that, then I'd say we've done good. Brian |
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5 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Reformer Joe | 29559 | ||
Really, no offense intended here, how could they both have been right and both wrong? Where exactly do you hold Luther to be right and the Church to be wrong, because they definitely were not saying the same thing in different terms. This is the first time I have ever heard a Roman Catholic say that Luther was right in anything in the disagreement between the Reformation and Rome. I sincerely want to know on what doctrinal issues you claim that Rome was in error. Specifically, who was right on whether justification is merited by us or solely by God's grace? Is justification earned via our works or received on the basis of faith alone? Is Scripture alone our ultimate authority or Scripture and the pronouncements of the RCC? I our salvation solely accomplished by the mediatorial work of Christ on the Cross 2000 years ago? These are the issues on which the Reformation hinged. Where has Rome changed its position on any of these? If your position differs from that of Rome, I would love to hear that, too. Thanks! --Joe! |
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6 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Brian.g | 29580 | ||
Joe Here's a section of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. This is what the Church teaches. 817 .... But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." ... Here's a comment from the documents of Vatican II. On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise. Joe, this is as far as time allows for me to work on this today. Regards, Brian |
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7 | The Spirit and the Word: How Related? | Rom 8:11 | Reformer Joe | 29638 | ||
That's fine. I don't want to seem to be cornering you for an answer. I'll be here. As far as what you did post from the RCC Catechism however, it merely says that men on both sides were to blame for the split. The paragraph does not identify the culprits (was it the Pope or just some lesser figures not acting on his behest/authority?) not does it comment at all on the material differences in the controversy that led to Trent. Does the RCC still hold the same position it did then? Because classical Protestantism hasn't budged. There is no question that Vatican II made great strides to work for unity, but I will still contend that what the RCC strives for is unity under its terms and its theological understanding. Rome still holds to the same theological stance it did in the 16th century, and its goal is to bring the "wayward" back into true, full communion with Rome. Please be aware that the Protestant understanding is NOT that all Catholics are outside of the saving grace of God. Where we disagree is where authority comes from, the nature of justification, and what makes the true church of God. There are Catholics who are indeed relying on Christ's completed work alone as the grounds of their justification, as there are Protestants who think that works and ritual and denominational affiliation somehow form the basis (or at least part of the basis) of God's declaration of righteousness on the part of the individual. The true church of God doesn't fit neatly into a denomination or visible human organization. The true, invisible, universal church is scattered among both biblically-functioning churches and those that preach serious biblical error. --Joe! |
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