Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | John Reformed | 59018 | ||
Dear Emmaus, Catholic doctrine is diametrically opposed to reformed theology. The first is commited to salvation through faith plus good works and the second by faith alone. Your closest counterpart among protestants are those who espouse the theology known as arminianism. Arminians believe that salvation rests in the hands of man. So do catholics. You both believe that election and eternal life are based on man's decision to believe in Christ and remain faithful to the end. Calvinists believe that it is God who elects individuals and that it is God who gives them the grace to persevere to the end. One is a man centered gospel and the other a God centered gospel. When I present the gospel to unbelievers I will sometimes draw for them the distinction betwen christianity and every other religion in the world. I explain how the gospel is the Good News that God has provided a way for man to have peace with Him. That way is through faith in Jesus Christ. Every other religion is based on works to one degree or another. Perhaps at this point you would object by reminding me that James teaches us that faith without works is dead. Have no fear Emmaus, I believe James for it is God's Word and that all of God's Word is true. However it is also written: Eph 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." 1. WE ARE GOD'S WORKMANSHIP. 2. CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS 3. WHICH GOD PREPARED BEFOREHAND (Pre-ordained) 4. THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM God is the one who acts upon us, enabling us to succesfully fulfill all that he, according to His eternal purpose, has planned for us to do. You see? There is no contradiction in reformred theology Justification is at least an additional post or two. If you are interested give me the catholic view and and I'll give you the reformed. then we can compare the two for similarites. If any. John |
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2 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59023 | ||
John, I can not speak for Arminians but I do not think the statement below is an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine. "Arminians believe that salvation rests in the hands of man. So do catholics"... John Here is the Council of Trent on three areas we have touched on: CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46] 44. Rom. 3:24; 5:1. 45. Heb. 11:6. 46. Rom. 11:6. CHAPTER X THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56] This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: "Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57] 49. Eph. 2:19. 50. Ps. 83:8. 51. See 2 Cor. 4:16. 52. Col. 3:5. 53. Rom. 6:13, 19. 54. Apoc. 22:11. 55. Ecclus. 18:22. 56. James 2:24. 57. Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost. CHAPTER XIII THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE Similarly with regard to the gift of perseverance, of which it is written: He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved,[75] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him stand who stands,[76] that he may stand perseveringly, and to raise him who falls, let no one promise himself herein something as certain with an absolute certainty, though all ought to place and repose the firmest hope in God's help. For God, unless men themselves fail in His grace, as he has begun a good work, so will he perfect it, working to will and to accomplish.[77] Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall,[78] and with fear and trembling work out their salvation,[79] in labors, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayer, in fastings and chastity. For knowing that they are born again unto the hope of glory,[80] and not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat that yet remains with the flesh, with the world and with the devil, in which they cannot be victorious unless they be with the grace of God obedient to the Apostle who says: We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die, but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[81] 75. Matt. 10:22; 24:13. 76. Rom. 14:4. 77. Phil. 1:6, 2:13. 78. See 1 Cor. 10:12. 79. Phil. 2:12. 80. See 1 Pet. 1:3. 81. Rom. 8:12f. Emmaus |
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3 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | John Reformed | 59071 | ||
Dear Emmaus, You have me at a disadvantage. I must admit I have not studied the Council of Trent. Nevertheless, in practice the Catholic Church denys Sola Fide. Allow me, a simple church member, to explain the reformed position on this crucial doctrine. The substitutionery death of Jesus on the cross has obtained for His people (the elect) peace with God. This blessing becomes a reality in one's life when upon hearing the gospel, that person believes it's message an embraces Christ as His Savior and Lord. The scenario described above is wholly the work of God. This does not mean that salvation is forced on the elect, but what has happened is that a new birth from above has taken place. The old heart of stone has been taken away and a heart of flesh has replaced it. This new creature has experienced a spiritual birth. Prior to God's act of regeneration they did possess the freedom to seek after God but did not possess the ability for they were spiritualy dead in trepasses and sin. I hold that the Scripture(from cover to cover)teaches the Soverign reign of God over His creatures as well as the rst of creation. Therefore, if it is God who saved me, it must be God who keeps me. And the Bible tells me that that is exactly the way it is. If I am His I will bear fruit (good works)because He forms the fruit in me just as He does in the Fig tree or any other tree for that matter. Even when I sin grace abounds in my life. Don't get me wrong, Im no antinomian. What I mean is that my sinfulness shows me how weak I am and how dependent I am on His grace, it therefore works humility in me and helps me to be not so judgemental of others. It also causes me to love Him all the more. In my own eyes my sins make me so ugly and unclean. But the Lord comes and covers my filth with His own spotless garment and brings me before His Father who pronounces me as pure and sinless as His only begotten Son. To me pennance is an attempt to wash the stains of sin from my own filthy rags while Jesus stands by holding out His own robes to me. I know I'm drifting from the topic but I just went with what is on my heart. Perhaps I can pick up the thread later. John |
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4 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59111 | ||
John, I would not have much to disagree with you about on this post. It is true that the Catholic Church does not hold to Sola Fide. It is the Sola part it disputes, because its definition of faith includes the fruit of works as opposed to separating them. If you think of works in Christ and see where St. Paul says that three things last; faith, hope and charity (works in Christ) you can see how these three are bound together intrinsically by grace. And this without even bringing James into the picture. Another way to avoid what I comsider to be the false argument between Paul and James is to just look at how Paul opens and closes Romans talking about the "obedience of faith." What is that but works in Christ and an intrinsic part of faith? I sometimes think too much is made of these distinctions by category in theology, since the actual practice in the daily activities of life is often the same among believers who argue over the theological distinctions. EdB has expressed the same thought as you about penance. I can't for the life of me understand why you both see it that way. I don't see it in that light at all, but rather as an outward expression of turning back to God who calls us by His grace and getting back in tune with His grace. It seems a very biblical concept to me. I suspect it is the formal connection you see to a sacrament which you do not acknowledge that is off putting. I certainly know Born Again Protestants who have done and are doing penance for sins which have been forgiven, but they may not call it by that name or connect it with a sacrament. Emmaus |
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5 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | John Reformed | 59152 | ||
Dear Emmaus, As a catholic, I was requierd to confess my sins to a priest. I was given absolution and instructed to say a certain number of Hail Mary's and Our Fathers as a condition of being restored to a "state of grace". In other words: I had to add works to faith in order to recieve absolution. I no longer believe that the Catholic system of confession and pennance is scriptural. 1) 1Ti 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ". I don't need an earthly priest. 2) Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. I would encourage you to read the entire 8th chapter. There is no falling from grace if you are in Christ. 3) 1 John 1:9 " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We are to take our sins to the Father and to go boldly before the throne of grace, and God forbid that I offer my works as a propitiation for my sins. Instead my song will be: Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee; Let the water and the blood, From Thy wounded side which flowed, Be of sin the double cure; Save from wrath and make me pure. Not the labor of my hands Can fulfill Thy law’s demands; Could my zeal no respite know, Could my tears forever flow, All for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone. Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to the cross I cling; Naked, come to Thee for dress; Helpless look to Thee for grace; Foul, I to the fountain fly; Wash me, Savior, or I die. While I draw this fleeting breath, When mine eyes shall close in death, When I soar to worlds unknown, See Thee on Thy judgment throne, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee God Bless Emmaus, John |
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