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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 52244 | ||
Greetings John! I'm sorry my friend! I really wasn't trying to be rude or anything. It's just that we have been down this road before, so what's the point! :-) I'll say that 'all' means 'all' unless it is modified by some other limiting word. You'll say that 'all' means 'all elect'. And, we'll say the same thing for 30 posts! ;-) So, I just figured that I had made my point and you had made yours, so that would suffice! I figured a couple of posts would be better than 30! p.s. - Of course I didn't agree! LOL Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52253 | ||
Dear Tim, Iron sharpens iron, but it can take quite a few licks before the edge grows keen. 2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Note: It should also be kept in mind that the topic is not salvation but the return of Christ. It is my intention to prove that the "you" in verse 9 can only refer to those Peter is addressing. 2 Pet 3:1-3 "This is now, BELOVED, the second letter I am writing to YOU in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that YOU should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with THEIR mocking, following after THEIR own lusts," NOTE: Peter is addressing elect people. He refers to them as "beloved" and "you". He then refers to mockers in the 3rd person "them". But everywhere else he speaks to his audience as "beloved" or "you". This is a very important distinction to make! Your assumption is that the "you" in v.9 says the Lord is "patient toward you" that this "you" refers to every person universally. This interpretation cannot be supported from the context in which every other place in the passage "you" means those he earlier identifies as "beloved". The same is true for the terms "any" and "all". As you saw from my example in the previous post, once my audience was identified, the use of "any" and "all" as pertaining to my audiance only, was perfectly justified and grammatically correct. My conclusion is that the interpretation that you defend is not supportable by the context. If you can show me where I err, you will have my gratitude. Your Brother, John |
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3 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 52258 | ||
Greetings John! See, this is exactly what I was trying to avoid! :-) So, this is my last post on this particular issue, not out of anger, but simply because it must stop somewhere! :-) The issue is not the meaning of the term 'you'. The 'you' definitely refers to his audience. However, the issue is the next clause where the pronoun 'you' is not used. There, we find an unmodified indefinite pronoun which every translation translates as 'any'. This is further defined in the next clause with the adjective 'all'. Unmodified by 'you', 'any' and 'all' refers to each individual grammatically. If the clause said, 'all of you' or 'any of you', then your interpretation would be correct grammatically. But, this is not the text that we find in 2 Pet. 3:9. Thus, I respectfully disagree with your limiting of the indefinite pronoun 'any' and of the adjective 'all' since the text does not limit it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52265 | ||
Hello Tim, Thanks for your reply. But I must withold my gratitude for your explanation (atleast for the time being). I contend that Peter is addressing the elect and that when he says any and all he is referring not to the immediate audience of christians only, but to all who will believe down through the ages until the last believer is brought into the fold. I am gratefull to you Tim. I did err in my reasoning. In the back of my mind was a nagging suspicion that I was missing something regarding any and all. Your last post forced me to look again at my argument and James White opened my eyes to the broader sense of Peter's audience. My question is: If Peter's audience is actually composed of the saints of the apostolic age and the saints that would follow in the coming ages, then would not the indefinite pronouns be appropriate? let me paraphrase what I mean. "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any saint (past, present or future) to perish but for all to come to repentance." I want to back up my statement by dealing with the fact that God does not wish any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Repentance comes as a gift granted by God to those who are being saved. 2 Tim 2:24,25 "The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth," Until we realize who chooses whom much of Scripture will remain troublesome. I know I exercise your patience but afterall, you posted me first. God Bless you Tim, John |
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