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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What happens to our soul when we die? | Luke 12:20 | mark d seyler | 156812 | ||
Hi SBoone, Let's look at Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. You wrote that the fire that shall not be quenched actually means that it will be quenched after it finishes destroying. You cite the burning of Edom, Is 34, as an example. This destruction of Edom has not happened yet. It is reserved for the Day of the Lord: Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Some have even suggested that this will be the Lake of Fire. This would even fit with what Isaiah wrote. Meanwhile, the language in Is 34:10 is very strong and specific, and Edom (specifically the streams, the dust, the land)will burn forever. Its interesting that this prophecy of Edom is so specific. Normally in the Bible when nationalities are mentioned, they refer more to the peoples than the actual territories. Modern scholars recognize this as they study the prophecies of Ezekiel 38. The question isn't where were those nations, but rather, where are those peoples today? Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah did not sin. The people in the cities sinned. The cities were destroyed, but not punished The people were punished. Or shall I say, "are being punished", because the Greek verb translated "suffering" is a present active participle. The are currently experiencing this punishment. When Hannah gave Samuel to serve the Lord "forever", this is "beyond the vanishing point". This is often used to mean "forever", but not always. It means "farther than I can see". That notwithstanding, do you that that Samuel no longer serves the Lord? The Isaiah 34 passage adds additional language to confirm the context as "something that will not end". But perhaps most telling, is in the New Testament. Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. The same Greek is used of everlasting punishment as everlasting life. And we are not talking about "the result of the punishment", i.e. death, as you claim. To say that is to add words that are not found in the text. The punishment is Greek kolasin, from the verb kolaso, to cut back. Its not a good thing, but it is not synonymous to destruction or death. In 1 John 4:18 it is translated "torment": "fear hath torment". Look back at Isaiah 66:24 for a moment. What do you think it means "their worm shall not die"? If you asked a Hebrew Rabbi that question, they would tell you the "worm" is that which remains after the parts of a man that can be destroyed have been destroyed. The miserable, pitiful remaining part, the worm, does not die, but exists in suffering forever. Don't try this at home. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | What happens to our soul when we die? | Luke 12:20 | SBoone | 156835 | ||
Hello Mark, I appreciate your extensive comments. I have taken some time to read through your comments and compare to several commentaries. I've got to say you are correct. I have been taught in the past that Edom's destruction was a specific destruction in the past, but I believe you are correct that it is pointing forward to the end of time. Thank you for setting me straight. Although my example does not hold true I still hold to the other comments that I have shared. Before I comment on Is 66 check out Is 65:17. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind". Also note 2 Peter 3:10-13. "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up". Matt 10:28 Christ's words tell us "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evil doer will be chaff, and the day that is coming will set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch". Ezekiel 28:18,19 "Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; You have become terrified And YOU WILL CEASE TO BE FOREVER". Ps 37:10 "yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there". Jer 17:27 gives us a deeper understanding of what it means to not be quenched. "I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jersalem and not be quenched". The fire that is devouring will not be quenched or put out. Now putting Is 66 into context of these other texts (including Is 65:17 just a few verses before) I would say that it means something different than the "miserable, pitiful remaining part" that remains when the rest of the wicked is burned away. The exact same Hebrew word translated worm is found in other places and is simply maggots preying upon dead bodies. This lines up with Is 66 who calls the dead "corpses". See Ex 16:20 worms fouled manna left over night. See Is 14:11 speaks of maggots as the deads covering. I know that Job 25:6 and Ps 22:6 can be used to support your comment of man being being a worm and a reproach, but I believe that in Is 66 you would take the first description so that it is in harmony with the rest of scripture. I probably have blown all credibility with my Edom illustration, but hopefully these texts will show that the Biblical perspective on all issues is so very important to me, in fact it is the only thing (Phil 3:7,8). Thank you again for your comments. SBoone |
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3 | What happens to our soul when we die? | Luke 12:20 | mark d seyler | 156842 | ||
Hi SBoone, Thank you for your response. To me, this is not about credibility. It is about the serious study of the Bible. We gain when we learn. It happens to me all the time. :-) I'd like to look briefly at the scriptures you reference. I may have to come back to this later if I run out of time. We are looking at these verses with a view towards the survival or anihilation of the unredeemed: Is 65:17 - whether a thing is remembered or not does not signify if it continues to exist. II Peter 3 - The heavens and earth can be burned up, yet this does not refer to the unredeemed. Matt 10:28 - How does "destroy the body and soul in hell" relate to "everlasting punishment"? This is a valid question. Malachi 4:1 (one of my favorite chapters!) This is metaphorical, so we need to determine the metaphor. Root and branch are commonly used to speak of lineage and descendants. That could be the case here, which would be a reason to not use this scripture to modify the meaning of another that speaks of the unredeemed's survival. Ez. 28:18-19 "you will cease to be forever" (NASB) - this is a slightly interpretive translation, this passage is more literally translated "you will be nothing forever". "and never shalt thou be any more." KJV "and thou shalt nevermore have any being." ASV "And shall be no more forever" NKJV "and thou art not -- to the age" Youngs The Hebrew translated "nothing" and "no more" is also translated variously as "not found", "unsearchable", and does not neccessarily mean to cease to exist. One example is Saul looking for his father's donkeys. "The were nowhere" didn't mean they ceased to exist, just that Saul couldn't find them. Psalm 37:10 I do not have a good enough grasp of the Hebrew for this one, however the context seems to be saying thay the wicked will not have a place on the earth. They seem so prominent now, but they won't be then. Jer 17:27 I agree that this is fire that burns until it runs out of fuel, and will completely burn Jerusalem. This fire will go out because it runs out of fuel. Should the fuel somehow be capable of burning forever, forever it would burn. This leaves us with Matthew 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. What do you think so far? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | What happens to our soul when we die? | Luke 12:20 | SBoone | 156887 | ||
Good morning, Sorry I missed your comment last night. Unfortunately I don't have internet I can use at home other than my palm phone which is impractical to use with much typing. Is 65:17 - I agree that remembrance does not preclude existance. However, in Heaven or the new Earth we would certainly be aware if there were millions of people suffering eternal torment. So to me "the former things will not be remembered or come to mind" would mean at some point the wickeds existance would come to an end so that we could have closure on the sin issue. The key for me in 2 Pet 3:10 is "the earth and its works will be burned up". The earth itself has no works in need of burning up. I would suggest this refers to the unredeemed. Mt 10:28 echoes several texts that talk about the soul being destroyed. In fact here it is very specific that the soul of the unredeemed will be destroyed in hell. The everlasting punishment again is death. Their death is everlasting. Once they are destoyed that act will not be undone. Mal 4:1 I agree this is a metaphor. I interpret it as a metaphor for the end of time (What is your understanding?). I don't disagree that root and branch refer to lineage. I read this verse that "every evildoer will be chaff" burned to dust, and that the root and branch that is represented in the lineage by this individual will be cut off and burned. This will leave them nothing. See also John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned". Ez 28:18,19 The different translations don't change my understanding of these texts. In fact they seem to afirm it. In vs. 18 NKJV says "I brought fire from you midst; It devoured you, and I turned you to ashes" Youngs is very similar as is KJV. The ashes that result from the devouring of the unredeemed lead to vs. 19 where "you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever"NKJV. Ps 37:10 I too wish I had a better understanding of Hebrew also. I agree with your understanding of the context, but would suggest that vs. 10 and 20 is predicting the destruction of the wicked. Mark, you really are very thorough in your study. I believe this is how we are to study the Bible. Is 28:9,10 tells us to do this. Then John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach us. Another way to look at this issue would be to ask why is it important. Is the belief one way or the other opening doors of opportunity to Satan? I would suggest that the fact that over one billion persons are going to pray to a dead person today is very troubling as a Christian. I don't know how many will hear responses, but I know many claim to do so. In your opinion to whom are these people speaking? If they hear a response whom have they heard from? If you were to stand on scripture to show a child of God why they should not pray to the dead how would you do it? I really enjoy studying with you. It appears the Lord is with you and I do not take lightly your comments or viewpoints. I spent quite a bit of time in prayer this morning asking the Lord to lead me to His truth. SBoone |
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5 | What happens to our soul when we die? | Luke 12:20 | mark d seyler | 156906 | ||
Hi SBoone, I am enjoying this study with you too, and you ask some very challenging questions. I also do not have home internet, and so that will limit my responses to you. Regarding prayer: Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Jesus told us that when we pray, we are to direct our prayers to the Father. John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. Jesus said "You don't have to pray to Me, and I pray to the Father for you - He loves you, and you can go straight to Him." Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Our dead friends and relatives are not sitting on that throne, God is. Why would we pray to anyone but God? Christianity is all about our relationship with God, and if our relationship is with God, we pray to Him. Jesus prayed to His Father. He told us to pray to our Father. The apostles prayed to the Father. The one example I can think of that is at all different is when Stephen prayed to Jesus: "receive my spirit." This is where I would begin. As far as who I think people are speaking to when they address prayers to the dead, and who speaks back? I don't know. Maybe demons, maybe Satan himself, but I doubt it. Why should he bother with them, they're already derailed. Maybe the product of their own imaginations, who knows? On Is. 66:17 I still maintain that a thing can be not remembered or thought about yet may still exist, and that this is not sufficient to negate something if it is otherwise shown in scripture, and so that this verse is not germain to this discussion. Regarding 2 Peter 3:10 "the earth (Gk. ges - the land, as opposes to kosmos - the world system) will be burned up, and the works that are in it." The plain straightforward meaning of this verse is that this planet is going to burn, and all the works it has on it are going to burn with it. Simple interpretation: All the works upon this earth will one day burn. I know of no place in scripture that the unredeemed, or anyone else, are considered "works", except as a part of God's original creation, which does not seem to fit the context here. In terms of works that remain, or works that burn, works are always something that a person does, rather than what they are, to so say that "works" in this passage refers to the unredeemed is to read meaning into the text that is not found there on its own. And I disagree with you, I think the earth has a great many works in serious need of being burned up. One is the sex shop a couple of doors down from my work. There are more works besides. Basically, everything done by man in rebellion to God, which is most of everything. Baptism by fire, baby!! Wash away the old, to prepare the way for the new. The thing is, we don't need a doctrine of non-survival of the unredeemed dead to tell us not to pray to them. I reject the notion that I can interpret Scripture according to what I think may or may not be the effect of a certain teaching. People pray to the dead. People also pray to demons, and to fallen angels, yet the Bible teaches that they exist, I an will not try to alter that. We have to leave our Theology, expectations, and all other baggage at the door, and just simply seek to understand what the Bible says. Do do a truly complete study of this subject, I will need to take more time at home. This week is pretty busy for me, perhaps next I can give to you a more complete presentation. You can also enter search words, and see the discussion that has gone on before. Thank you for the info in your profile. Since this is basically a cold and blind way to meet, it helps to get a sense of who we are talking to. :-) One last thing. One of the primary things to keep in mind when attempting to understand the Bible, is to understand what the writer meant as he wrote. The four corners of the earth - we say the same thing ourselves. The rising and setting of the sun - Doc (?) has a fancy name for that kind of language but I don't. Phenomenasomething. That the dead don't know anything, their thoughts have perished, etc., these statements are found in the poetic portions of scripture. Not that there is not truth in these portions, but some of it is there to show how man thinks (especially Job - after all that was recorded, God told them they were all wrong), and should not be used for building doctrine, and especially when it seems to disagree with narative historical portions such as about Saul and Samuel. Anyway, I am looking forward to discussions on any number of topics with you. God bless! Love in Christ, Mark |
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