Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | ebrain | 164534 | ||
If you read the Scripture passage indicated, you will know exactly what I mean. 1. "The good that I want to do, I don't do, the evil that I don't want to do that is what I find myself doing". This is Pauls problem, it is also your problem, and mine. 2. When our Lord said "you can do nothing" He ment exactly what He said, that you are not able to do anything. From a human point of view we are certainly able to do "good" (morally virtuous acts) but not however from the Divine point of view. Please refer to Mark Ch 10 vs 17-18, also Romans Ch 3 vs 10-12, Paul here is quoting Psalm 14 vs 1-3, and Psalm 53 v 1-3. |
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2 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 164593 | ||
Hi Ebrain, 1. I would think whether being unable to do good is your problem or mine is not the issue. What is at issue is the question of whether or not the apostle Paul was describing his experience as a believer in Christ. With reference to vs.6, which shows the contrast Paul is making, that is, between the "newness of the Spirit" and the "oldness of the letter," I do not think Romans 7 is reflective of his personal experience. 2. Even sinners can act morally virtuous. I do not think that Jesus meant literally that one cannot do any good act apart from Him (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13). What he does mean is that we cannot perform any act that is acceptable before God apart from Him, irrespective of how good, sincere, or loving the motive may be. I do not think there is any real difference between us on this issue, only a different perspective or way to look at it. |
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3 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | ebrain | 164597 | ||
If as you say Paul is talking of the time before he converted, Please explain why vs 1-13, are written in the past tense, and vs 14-25, are written in the present tense? The word of God does not disagree with itself, the verses you quote refer to man's idea of what is good. When Jesus said "why do you call me good, only God is good" (Mark 10:18) is He saying that He is not God? Please let me have your comments on the verses I quoted in the last paragraph of my post of 10.28 am on the 22nd. |
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4 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 164694 | ||
Hie Ebrain, I did not mean the apostle is describing his experience before his conversion. I said, “I do not think Romans 7 is reflective of his personal experience,” which includes both before and after conversion. My apologies if I did not make that clear. When you say, “the verses you quote refer to man's idea of what is good,” are you suggesting that Jesus has a wrong idea of what is good or that what he said is not divinely inspired? Mark 10:17-18 – Jesus is affirming God’s character as good in opposition to sinful man. Romans 3:10-12; Psalm 14:1-3 – These verses affirm all men are sinful. Psalm 53:1-3 – Again, man’s sinfulness is affirmed. However, although acknowledging man’s sinfulness, none of the verses above (except for Ps 53:3 as I read it from the NIV) deny that man can commit a morally good act. It is seen in experience that a sinner can perform a morally good act. The problem is that however morally good the act is, God does not accept it as good and, therefore, the good act is a bad act (Isa 64:6; Jer 2:22). Ps 53:3 must also affirm this since it cannot be denied that men can and do perform mrally good acts. The main point of all the verses cited show that man is sinful; that although he may do what is good and right, they are acts unacceptable before God because they are performed apart from faith and life in God. I am not denying man is sinful. I am saying that man as a siner is able to perform good acts, although they are unacceptable to God. |
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5 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | ebrain | 164716 | ||
Hi Atdcross. Thank you for your post. Would I be right in concluding that you do accept that Paul's words in Rom 7:14, and following, refer to problems that he had after, and not before his conversion. That this same problem is also universal with all christians as confirmed at 1st John 1:8-10, which is written to christians, and not the unconverted. Refering now to your 2nd paragraph. In no way am I sugessting any such thing, in fact I am supprised that you should even put forward such a possibility. Jesus is sinless, is Devinely inspired, and is incapable of arriving at a wrong conclusion in respect of a man's deeds, in fact if you look at Luke 11:13, you will see that Jesus says that thoes who know how to give good gifts, are in fact evil. Not that good deeds make you evil, we are all of us evil regardless of what we do, or do not do. When the rich young ruler called Jesus "good master", he had no idea that he was speaking to God, he thought that he was speaking to just another man like himeself, even if that man was in fact a Teacher. I is not supprising therefore to find that our Lords reply is in keeping with this young man's assumption, and in no way can His answer be taken as indicating that Jesus was denying His Devine nature. As far as I can se we do not appear to be in disagreement, I do hope that the above clarifies the situation, and explains my position. May the Lord bless you. Edwin. |
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6 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 164730 | ||
Romans 7 is, I believe, not descriptive of any personal experience before or after conversion. 1 John 1:8-10 is not intended as descriptive of anyone's personal problems in relation to sin. These verses seem to combat some heretical teachings at the time related to claims of being sinless or absolute perfection. Regarding your surprise at my suggestion, after stating there are no inherent contradictions in the Bible, you claim, “the verses you quote refer to man's idea of what is good.” The verses I quoted were the words of Jesus (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13), therefore, making the implication that Jesus statements here are merely “man’s idea.” I assumed you did not realize it and I only sought clarity in your position. Luke 11:13 stress the point of my argument. Jesus is affirming that even evil people can do a good deed. In general we may not disagree, however, specifically I disagree that the interpretation of Romans 7 is descriptive of the apostle’s personal experience. (1) To the question, “No one acts good”? the answer is that evil people to commit acts that are in and of themselves morally good. (2) To the question, “Paul had problems?” (in relation to Romans 7), the answer is that the apostle claimed to have led a blameless life before and after conversion (Phil 3:4-6; Acts 24:16). The apostle had no such struggle with sin as described in Romans 7:14 or 8:8. "Paul's experience as a Christian is the last thing that could be considered as the topic here. 'I am carnal, sold under sin'...To refer these words to Paul's status as a Christian, or to the status of any other Christian, is to torture the word of God...Paul had just finished saying that Christians are 'dead to sin' and 'alive unto God' in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:11); and to apply these words to Christians is to contradict what had just been stated" (Coffman). |
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7 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | DocTrinsograce | 164735 | ||
Dear Atdcross... You wrote, "Romans 7 is, I believe, not descriptive of any personal experience before or after conversion." A thought that you have expressed more than once in this forum and more than once elsewhere. I was going to demonstrate the deficiencies behind this statement. When, on further consider, question in due course surfaced in my mind, "Of whom, then is the experiences of chapter 7 being written?" You write, "Paul's experience as a Christian is the last thing that could be considered as the topic here." Continuing to leave an incredible vacuum that demands filling. When one comes to a passage of scripture, ejecting orthodox interpretation by the truck loads, it is remiss, at best, to fail to offer an alternative explanation. Certainly those 2,000 years of accumulated understanding, forming the basis for whole movements in the church, and the establishment of sound doctrine upon which creed, hymn, and sermon were written, warrant an interpretation at least as perspicuous as that which you jettison. Also, I'd be negligent if I didn't mention to you that coming into a public forum like this -- a lone crusader -- necessarily makes some well founded assumptions about your readers: They deserve an opportunity to way this theory of yours to see if it is found wanting. While you are at it, perhaps you might populate your personal profile so that we might be able to acknowledge the authority of the one making these new assertions. We'd like to see how you measure up to Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Beza, Wesly, Gill, Barnes, and others. (They are the old dead Bible students whose interpretation with which you have dispensed.) Please... elucidate! In Him, Doc |
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8 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | BradK | 164736 | ||
Hi Doc, Just a quick observation as I had similar thoughts. I think a very telling and important fact is in the grammar. In verses 7-13, the verb tenses are all past tense. In verses 14-25 the verbs are all present tense! So, in light of that, why would Paul distinguish tenses if he were not refering to himself as well as the clear fact that text uses "I"! Does I in grammar refer to someone other than the one writing? As usual, I believe the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion to prove it true! Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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