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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 164953 | ||
Hello Doc, Out of curiosity, where elsewhere other than in this forum have I expressed my views of Romans 7? No one’s experience in particular is being considered. Paul, as I see it, is just using the first person as a literary device to get his point across, which is the contrast between life under the law (which is not reflective at all of the apostle’s experience as a believer in Christ) and life under grace or “in the new way of the Spirit” (Rom 7:6). Please note that your reference to what I write is actually a quote Coffman’s Commentary as indicated. In any case, if Rom 7 demonstrates the apostle’s experience then as a Christian he is: 1. Dead in sin, v.9. 2. Deceived, v.11. 3. Unspiritual, v.14. 4. Enslaved to sin, v.14,25. 5. Without power to do the good, v.17f. 6. Continually does evil, v.19. 7. Imprisoned by “the law of sin”, v.23. Are these descriptive of a believer? Of Paul as he describes himself? As I mentioned before, unless the persons you mentioned interpreted the Bible for “2,000 years of accumulated understanding” under the inspiration of the Spirit, I am not obligated to agree with them. They certainly cannot be right in every point as they seem to disagree with each other in many. Nor, by the way, am I required to "measure up" to them. Without argument, they may hold the better place, nevertheless, however "better", my obligation is to have a clear conscience before God not men; I am to live according to that wisdom God grants to me, however faulty or lacking others perceive it to be (although, admittedly, any actual fault or lack is not due to God's giving but to my receiving). My apologies, but I do not understand what you are requiring I “elucidate”. |
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2 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | DocTrinsograce | 164978 | ||
Dear Atdcross, You listed seven specific characteristics from Romans 7, asking, "Are these descriptive of a believer?" The real question is whether Paul was speaking of his own experience -- either before or after salvation -- in Romans chapter 7. The argument you pose seems relevant only to making the point that Paul was speaking of himself prior to salvation. If that is the case, as orthodoxy has taught, then one has no need to invent a literary device to account for these statements. On the other hand, your method of arguing could easily be used to make the point in the opposite direction. What does Paul say about himself and his readers? That they... 1. Are dead to the law (v4a) 2. Bring fruit forth unto God (v4b) 3. Are delivered from the law (v6a) 4. Serve in newness of spirit (v6b) 5. Taught by the law about sin (v7) 6. Have their sin shown to be sinful to fullest extent possible (v13) 7. Know that in their flesh nothing good dwells (v18a) 8. Have a will to perform that which is good (v18b, 19, 21, 25) 9. Delight in the law (v22) 10. Have a war going on inside of them (v23) Are these things descriptive of non-believers? No such characteristics exist in those who are lost. The question about Paul's eternal disposition at any given moment in his statements may still be a point over which we may contend. However, to argue it one way or another by your seven points or by my ten points does not bring clarity. That's because the question misses the point of the passage. There are two themes in Romans 7: a believer's relationship to the law and the complete failure of the law to bring about sanctification. Note that the word "law" appears there 18 times! This chapter is obviously connected with chapter six and chapter eight! :-) I don't see how it can be separated from them and still be meaningfully studied. I'd also like to comment that there is a conflict raging inside of every believer: the struggle to walk in holiness and to resist the sin that so easily besets us. This is called "progressive sanctification" or "the pursuit of holiness." Indeed, the Puritans used to say that if you are not experiencing this warfare, then it is quite likely that you are not saved. Praise God that He does not leave us either now or ultimately helpless in this conflict, as Paul explains in chapter 8. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 165237 | ||
Hi Doc, Verse 7 is describing the Law as holy and v.13 as highlighting sin. Regarding v. 18a, even unbelievers can be conscious that nothing good dwells in them. Not knowing their sinful condition is necessarily their problem; their problem is, once being conscious of it, they refuse to come to Christ for deliverance. I think that v.18b,19,21 are good descriptions of the unregenerate. Some even confess their situation in like terms. Again, the problem is not so much that they cannot realize their sinfulness but they cannot see the value of believing in Christ for deliverance. Verse 25 to me reflects the sinner’s plight without grace and the divine influence or work of conviction upon his conscience (it is possible the first phrase of thanksgiving is out of place). To me this verse is equivalent to what is stated in vs.19-21. So, yes, if anything, these verses are descriptive of the unregenerate. In light of Romans 8, I do not see how it can be otherwise. With all respect to the Puritans, if one is living this kind of struggle, of coveting (v.8), “of flesh sold into bondage to sin” (v14), of always doing what he does not understand and what is contrary to his good intentions (15-20) as a “prisoner of the law of sin” (v.23), and serving the law of sin through indulgences of the flesh (v.25) on the contrary, he ought to take the time to reexamine his spiritual state to see if he is of the faith (1 Cor 11:28; 2 Cor 13:5; 1 Jn 1:6; 2:4,29; 3:6-7; 5:3-5). No one is denying that there may be a struggle in the believer’s life but as I think another poster pointed out, it is not a struggle of losing and falling into sin as Rom 7 depicts it; but it is a struggle in which the outcome is victory over sin. Whether or not consistent victory over sin is actually the case in one’s personal life is not my argument. That the struggle in the Christian life should be one of victory is my point. If Romans 7 is descriptive of the apostle Paul’s way of life, notwithstanding Rom 8, we are looking at, from my point of view, a pathetic state of affairs. I would question how one could call a life of always wishing the good but always doing the evil instead as walking according to the Spirit. |
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