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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mark: Many Proverbs not true? | Prov 22:6 | DocTrinsograce | 183712 | ||
Dear Mark, Just trying to clarify here: So you're saying that you are withdrawing... (1) Your statement "If we read these as a book of promises, we have a bigger problem then just that one verse" (sic) And.... (2) Your examples of so-called "untrue" proverbs? In Him, Doc |
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2 | Mark: Many Proverbs not true? | Prov 22:6 | mark d seyler | 183753 | ||
Hi Doc, Concerning your second question, "So you're saying that you are withdrawing... (2) Your examples of so-called "untrue" proverbs?" If you will recall what I said to Hank, to which I thought you were responding, I wrote: “I do not mean that these are not true proverbs.” I will stand completely behind this, and I have not presented what I consider to be a list of “untrue proverbs.” What I will do is modify a previous statement, to try to improve my clarity of expression: I had written, “There are many that are not exactly true in every instance,” which is what Hank had questioned me concerning. I had hoped that my explaination had been sufficient to show that I had intended to mean within the context and view of representing these sayings as promises. Since there still seems to be a lack of clarity concerning this, I will amend my statement to: “There are many that are not exactly true in every instance if they are to be understood as promises.” The examples I used were given to demonstrate the difference between a proverb and a promise. That is, as I have explained my understanding of what a promise is. Allow me to demonstrate more specifically with a single example: Proverbs 16:13 “Righteous lips are the delight of kings; and they love him that speaketh right.” This is a proverb of Soloman, wise beyond other men, accurately recorded and faithfully presented. Worthy of all consideration and acceptance. Suitable to guide us in life. As a king, you should delight in the lips of the righteous. When speaking to a king, speak righteousness, that the king may delight in you. If all is at it should be, with you, with the king, this is exactly what will happen. But does this constitute God’s unconditional commitment that every king will always, and without fail, delight in righteous lips? Or, if this is meant to portray God’s conditional commitment to do this provided certain conditions are met, what are those conditions? Where do we find them in Scripture? I do not find any conditional clauses associated with this referrenced verse. So then I move to the next issue. Is this, which you call a promise, performed in every instance, to the full measure, without exception? I would have to answer “no, it is not.” And this is where I would refer to the passage in 1 Kings: 1 Kings 22:8 “And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.” This is a Scriptural example of an instance where a king did not delight in righteous lips. I dare say there may well be other examples. Can you show me the Scriptural conditions which were not met? Here’s my point. I cannot, and I do not believe that God makes a promise and then we find it not being kept. So if I find that if whatever I are reading that I may think is a promise, if I find that it is not being kept in every instance without exception, then the fault lies in me, and not with God’s Word. And that I must have simply misunderstood, and either that is was not a promise, or that there were conditions that I missed, that are nonetheless there. Now, since these are called by the Bible "proverbs", sayings (and by the context, "wise sayings"), and not "promises", and since I do not see that they portray unconditional commitment by the LORD matched with a perfect perfomance record as would be required of a "promise", either with or without associated conditional clauses, I do not see these as promises. Proverbs – sayings – parables – but not promises. But as Proverbs, make no mistake, I accept them as Divinely Inspired Scripture, useful in all areas of our lives. “I do not mean that these are not true proverbs. I do not mean that they are not divinely inspired Scripture.” I hope this serves to clarify the matter. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Mark: Many Proverbs not true? | Prov 22:6 | DocTrinsograce | 183766 | ||
Dear Mark, Words are important. After all, they are the medium by which God has seen fit to reveal Himself. Furthermore, as we shall be judged even for idle words, we have every reason to carefully articulate with all the skill we can muster -- both individually and corporately. Of course, the very least we can do is assume responsibility for what we write. That's particularly true as we urge all sorts of caution on folks to be selective about their hearing. To do the latter, without the former, would impugn our character, insult our readers, and dishonor our Lord. Also, though contrary to the modern deemphasis of thought and the apparent distinction in English, words and logic are integrally connected. Therefore, the same, Godly principles ought to reign in our efforts to use reason. Your concerted efforts to clarify and refine your statements are appreciated. There are numerous examples of promises where the qualifications are implicit. Proverbs can be construed the same way. All Scripture, of course, must be weighed in the light of Scripture. Take, for example, the Proverbs you used: Righteousness has social ramifications (11:10); diligent labor provides (12:11); a good father provides for his children in the event of his death (13:22); provisioning is a characteristic of right living (13:25); leaders should issue righteous judgment (16:10); the blessedness of peace-makers (16:7); righteous leaders love the truth (16:13). These are, indeed, generalities that describe the world that the Lord has established. These are a few characteristics about how God has decreed that the world should operate. Nevertheless, things are rarely simple -- that's why the Scriptures elaborate. The net effect is that promise and proverb are different elements of a descriptive whole. In Him, Doc |
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4 | Mark: Many Proverbs not true? | Prov 22:6 | mark d seyler | 183784 | ||
Doc, I agree with you completely in the care that we need to take in how we articulate the truths of God's Word. As we discuss these things before a public arena, I believe we will incur the stricter judgment of a teacher. There is only one more thing I believe I can add to this thread. I do not consider anything in Scripture to be implicit in the sense that it is unexpressed. If something is not expressed in Scripture, then it is added by man. You may disagree with this, but that is my view. There is the sense of implicit that means "implied". Scripture implies a number of things, although we must take great care in fully establishing that a thing is truly implied by Scripture, and that it is God's intent to make that implication, lest we become guilty of adding to the text. I would say that by the time we have so established a matter, that it ceases to become implicit, since we will have shown that it actually is expressed in the text. But at the end of it all, again, I shall say, that our disagreement centers not on how to read and understand the Bible, but on the meanings and uses of a particular couple of words, and, I daresay, I think our readers have had adequate opportunity it understand what either of us mean as we say "promise". Thank you for what has been a most interesting discussion! Love in Christ, Mark |
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