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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146722 | ||
Hi EdB, Let us remember that this discussion is for Biblical teaching and not to turn it into a thread as long as your arm that ultimaley becomes a debate. You wrote, "and every creditable Bible scholar I know points to Eph 4:8 as fruition of that transference." Matthew Henry: "...Let us set ourselves to think of the ascension of Jesus Christ: that our blessed Redeemer, having risen from the dead, in gone to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high, which completed the proof of his being the Son of God. As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; (see Jdg 5:12). Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands..." - Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible - John Wesley: "...Wherefore he saith - That is, in reference to which God saith by David, Having ascended on high, he led captivity captive - He triumphed over all his enemies, Satan, sin, and death, which had before enslaved all the world: alluding to the custom of ancient conquerors, who led those they had conquered in chains after them. And, as they also used to give donatives to the people, at their return from victory, so he gave gifts to men - Both the ordinary and extraordinary gifts of the Spirit..." - John Wesley's Explanatory Notes - John Gill: "...he led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over; the allusion is to the public triumphs of the Romans, in which captives were led in chains, and exposed to open view..." - John Gill's Exposition on the Entire Bible - Adam Clarke: "...When he ascended up on high - The whole of this verse, as it stands in the psalm, seems to refer to a military triumph. Take the following paraphrase: Thou hast ascended on high: the conqueror was placed in a very elevated chariot. Thou hast led captivity captive: the conquered kings and generals were usually bound behind the chariot of the conqueror, to grace the triumph. Thou host received gifts for (Paul, given gifts unto) men: at such times the conqueror was wont to throw money among the crowd. Even to the rebellious: those who had fought against him now submit unto him, and share his munificence; for it is the property of a hero to be generous. That the Lord God might dwell among them: the conqueror being now come to fix his abode in the conquered provinces, and subdue the people to his laws. All this the apostle applies to the resurrection, ascension, and glory of Christ..." - Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible - Also you mentioned 1 Peter 3:19: "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, Tells us Jesus preached to those in prison (captivity)." You left off the rest of the context of that verse i.e. verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. " 'during the construction of the ark' is the key phrase here. These were those at the time before the flood. And the context of this passage is silent about the 'freeing' of the spirits that were in captivity only that He made "proclamation to the spirits"(NASB). It does not say that He brought those spirits to heaven. with grace, terrib |
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2 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146729 | ||
Terrib Notice one thing all of these explanations talk to the Roman (pagan) custom of triumphing over their victims in victory. However the audience Paul is writing is the Ephesians which had little or no real knowledge of what took place in Rome. CNN wasn't there to report. I think a lot of the references you brought up were thinking along those lines rather than Jewish or non-roman lines. Paul wrote to the understanding of his audience, which weren’t Roman but mostly Jewish. While these explanations are certainly credible I really believe Paul meant it as I have explained it. Perhaps I should been a little less dogmatic and a little more exact. Of the credible and current theologians that I view a high number agree this is talking about taking the souls in captivity to heaven. Let us approach this from another angle. Do you think Abraham's bosom is still occupied? If not where is their transference? Do you believe that a saint today upon death goes into the presence of the Lord? If not how do you explain Paul’s teaching in 2 Cor? If you do and you think Abraham’s bosom is occupied do you see a disparity of treatment? What do you believe happens to the soul upon death? EdB |
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3 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146736 | ||
Before my answers, where do you think Abraham is? 1. Do I think Abraham's bosom is still occupied? - Yes. Because it was used as an endearment term that the Jews understood because Abraham was the father of their nation. i.e.(to lay on the bosom of Abraham) Being in Abraham's bosom was-is to be in paradise. Jesus had yet to ascend to heaven at that time in Luke. After His ascension they were all there together in paradise as He told the thief on the cross. 2. Do I believe that a saint today upon death goes into the presence of the Lord? - Yes. with grace, terrib |
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4 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146745 | ||
Terrib I see you you feel Abraham went immediately into heaven and Abraham's bosom talked about in Luke 16 was in fact Heaven. That is an interesting view one that completely ignores Jewish teaching on death, Hades and our spiritual abode. However if that is your view, you are entitled to it. Since your conclusion that the saints are now in heaven is the same as mine. The only difference we have is when they got there. I believe I know the answer which I shared with you, you evidently disagree because you chose to ignore Jewish teachings. Therefore I don't think I have anything else I can offer you on this subject. The thing that is most important is that we will one day be together, know the answer to this for certain and will be in the presence of the Lord. Until then be blessed. EdB |
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5 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146747 | ||
What a gracious closing. Thank you EdB. It will be a pleasure to meet you face to face and in the presence of our Lord. with grace, terrib |
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