Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Were Eve's desires sinful? | Gen 3:6 | Lionstrong | 92786 | ||
Thanks for your thoughts and questions, Aixon. What does it mean to be tempted? Whatever it means to be tempted it does not necessarily mean sin. Jesus, a true man, was truly tempted to sin, but his experience of being in the state of being tempted was not sin on his part. If being tempted is sin, then Christ sinned. We know this is not so. Therefore being tempted is not sin. Temptation occurs when we are "carried away and enticed" by our own lusts, says James. (James 1:12-15) While I do not like the sound of this especially when applied to Christ, James is talking about how sin comes forth. Jesus did not lust, but it is when lust has conceived that it gives birth to sin. I think this figurative language means that it is when we have said "yes" to our sinful desires that we have committed further sin. James deals specifically with lust, but the more general truth is that to be tempted is to desire something that the fulfilling of which will RESULT in sin. There is a difference between desire and lust that I will mention later. And let us also be very clear on what sin is. Sin is not "whatever is not of faith." Whatever is not of faith is sin, yes. (Rom. 4:23) But it is not the definition of sin. That which proceeds from unbelief is a violation of one of God's commands. It is a particular sin. Murder is sin, but like "whatever is not of faith," murder is not a definition of, but a particular instance of sin. Now one can define sin by listing all the commands of God that can be broken. Not believing God is sin; making idols for worship is sin, having another God, not keeping the Sabbath, not honoring your folks, etc. But a good definition is that sin is any lack of conformity to or transgression of the law of God. Now to Eve, when did she cross the sin line? My contention is that it was not crossed when she was tempted or when she desired the wisdom, nourishment or beauty of the fruit. The proof if this is in the transgression God charged them to be guilty of. "And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? ...Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed..." etc. (Gen. 3:11, 17.) Adam was charged with transgressing the express command concerning the forbidden fruit. He was not charged for having desires that the fruit could fulfill. Eve sinned when she sinned, that is, she sinned when she transgressed the express law of God forbidding her not to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The prohibition to not touch the fruit was not God's command, nor did He sight it as a violation when he charged them. I think the prohibition was a precaution issued by Adam her lord (I Pet. 3:6) and husband and head of the human race. My contention is that beauty, wisdom and nourishment are legitimate desires, and God did not forbid these desires. There are sinful desires. God says do not commit adultery, and a person may desire to do so. When a desire is sinful it is called lust by which we are carried away and enticed. But in the case of Eve, what was her desire? Was it to eat the forbidden fruit or to gain wisdom? Was eating the fruit her aim, her purpose, her desire, or was it a means to an end? Her desire was wisdom, and Satan tricked her into fulfilling her legitimate desires by an illegitimate means. You pointed out yourself that God wants us to want wisdom and acquire it. But I differ with you on the issue of wanting to be as wise as God is. Was it wrong to want to be like God knowing good and evil? First of all, they were already like God. God created man in his own image. Yes, before the fall their "eyes were not yet opened," but nonetheless they were already the image and likeness of God. (Gen. 1:26,27) And who is to say that it was not God's purpose to eventually open man's eyes and give him the knowledge of good and evil? After all the sign of a mature Christian is his ability to discern between good and evil. In Hebrews 5:14 we read, "But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Add to this the Father's purpose to conform us to the image of Christ. (Rom. 8:29) "We are to grow up IN ALL ASPECTS into Him who is the head, even Christ," writes Paul. (Eph 4:15) (My caps) Christ himself is the wisdom of God and in him "are hidden ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Col. 2:3)(My caps) Further, Paul affirms that we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:16) So to say that it is wrong to desire to be as wise as God is when He himself seems intent on making us so seems to be incorrect if not counterproductive. |
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2 | Were Eve's desires sinful? | Gen 3:6 | Aixen7z4 | 92797 | ||
Questions remain, I think. It seems to me that beauty, wisdom and nourishment do not exist in vacuums and are not meaningful in and of themselves. The question concerns the legitimate sources of these qualities. The lemon tree is very pretty, and the lemon flower is sweet, but the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat. Does that make a point? Some beautiful fruits are actually poisonous and it would not be wise to eat them. In any case one should deny oneseslf the pleasure of desiring a thing, beautiful or not, if the Lord has put it on the forbidden list. Many women are beautiful, but a man is not to desire the beauty of another man's wife. Also on that list are his house, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his ass, and any thing else that belongs to that other man. Secondly, can you explain what Jesus meant when he said that a man has committed adultery if he looks at a woman with lustful eyes? I hope that you are not going outside these words to say that adultery occurs only when the physical act is consummated. Jesus says that man is not to be desiring that woman. While he is lusting, Jesus says he is not only being tempted, he is sinning. She is his not his wife and he should not be desiring her. Likewise a man should not be desiring the wisdom that does not come from above because it is earthly, sensual, devilish (James 3:15). He should be aware of evil, enough to be able to recognize it and avoid it. God does not want us to know evil through the experience of engaging in it. Again, "Be wise concerning that which is good, but simple (You don't have to know a whole lot) concerning evil" (Romans 16:9). You say that Adam and Eve were already like God, so you assume they already knew good and evil. Don't you find it strange then that God says, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil? (Gen 3:22). Surely, he had not just become what he already was. Surely you do not think that to be made in God's image means to be like him in every way. Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Omniscient? Adam was not any of those things. In spite of Benny Hinn, I would say that Adam could not even fly. He was like God in some ways, but not in every way. He only acquired the knowledge of evil when he had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:7). The above matters may not be clear or of prime practical importance. However, I think it should be clear, and important to understand, that Jesus was not tempted to sin. He is God. He is not tempted with evil (James 1:13). He was tempted by the devil. This refers to the activities of the devil, and not to any internal drives or desires within our Lord. He knew no sin. He could do no sin. He is perfect. Much as the heat shows the qualities of pure gold, the testing showed us what Jesus was made of. He loved righteousness and hated iniquity. He was not tempted to sin. Tested and tried, yes, and he came forth as gold. Lastly, I trust that no one reading these posts will think that it is good to know evil. Know of its existence, yes. Know how to recognize it, yes. (I think that 'Emmaus' makes the point well, and we should look again at his post, above). But not to know it intimately, in detail, or by experience, no. A client told me she needs to learn from experience, not from simply listening. I asked her, in the presence of her fiancé if she planned to learn about adultery in that way. That seemed to settle the question for her. I hope it settles it for us all. |
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3 | Were Eve's desires sinful? | Gen 3:6 | Lionstrong | 92891 | ||
Thanks, Aixen, I think you made some very good observations. I'd like to make one correction and ask one question. In your fifth paragraph you assumed that I meant the image of God endowed man with the knowledge of good and evil. I did not mean that. I said one question, but the one forces a second and maybe a third or more. Hebrews says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." (4:15.) In your next to last paragraph you said some confusing things. You said Jesus was not tempted (to sin) and Jesus was tempted (by Satan). (1) What does it mean, Jesus was tempted? (2) For that matter, what does it mean to be tempted? (3) What was Jesus tempted by Satan to do, if it was not to sin? (4) Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted, but are you saying that although the devil was TRYING to tempt Jesus, Jesus was not tempted? (4) So, if the devil failed to tempt Jesus, and Jesus was tempted according to Hebrews, then does Hebrews mean that Jesus was not tempted, but that all kinds of attempts were made to tempt him? (4b) Is this how you interpret the Hebrews passage? I won't press you any farther on this, because the question of the relation of Jesus and temptation might be better studied under the Hebrews passage. |
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4 | Were Eve's desires sinful? | Gen 3:6 | Aixen7z4 | 92927 | ||
Here is a long and careful answer. For clarity, please read it the same way. Bear with some repetition if it serves the cause of clarity. It is my understanding that the section in the book of Hebrews in view (Chapter 4) is talking about maintaining their faith; holding onto the truths they had been taught and not going back to the Mosaic system. Faith is tested, as in 1Peter 1:7. Genuine faith, like genuine gold, comes out shining. The Galatians had failed the test (Galatians 1:6). Christ had not been formed in them (Galatians 4:19). Thus they had allowed themselves to be removed from him that had called them into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. The writer to the Hebrews was strengthening them against a similar "falling away" or being tossed about, as in Ephesians 4:14. This I say in order to put the passage into context and to give a proper perspective. Now, for your questions. 1. What does it mean, Jesus was tempted? In that Jesus was tempted, he was tried, he was tested. The purpose was not to get him to do something immoral, but to turn him away from the plan and program of God. The result was that Jesus showed his true nature. He had come to do the Father's will. He was perfectly in accord with the Father and Satan tried to divert him, but he failed. Nothing could turn him away from the father's will. But Satan had persuaded some of the angels to take his side, and he would try it with Jesus. He failed. Jesus was not tempted. What I mean is, he was not interested in worshipping or serving Satan. Sometimes a comparison helps, so think if this. I once was a chemist and developed products. They had specifications. When they were manufactured they had to be tested in a quality control environment to see if they met the specs. They were put through tests. If they had been manufactured properly they passed the tests. This is what Jesus went through, and the results showed that he was the genuine article. He was God. There was no weakness in him. He passed the tests. If we can think of Jesus' "temptation" as a "test", then I think we have the right idea. 2. What does it mean to be tempted? a. You and I can be enticed to do wrong. We can be allured, drawn away. Our resolve can be broken down and we can give in to sin. All of that happens if we fail to resist the devil. But Jesus did not need to go through that. He is God and he is not tempted with evil. Evil has no attraction for him. b. We can also be tested. As mentioned above, our faith is tested. We pass the test and prove to ourselves that our faith is genuine. I studied to be a psychologist. I had to pass the tests and the license exams. I was tested and tried and certified. So was Jesus. Hebrews 2:18 He suffered being tempted. The tests included hunger, thirst, privation, shame, scorn, nails, death. He passed them all and showed himself the victor. 3. What was Jesus tempted by Satan to do? The devil tried to get him to turn away from the plan and purposes of God. He tried to get him to follow his (Satan's) plans. Look at the temptations themselves: a. Make bread when I say so. b. Tempt the Lord thy God. c. Worship me and serve me. The anticipated consequences? i. Your hunger satisfied, my way. ii. God's sovereignty questioned. iii. Power and riches with the loss of your soul. Jesus was not tempted by those. He did not want them. 4. Was Satan only trying to tempt Jesus? He was placing him in positions where a fake would crack. He was allowing his to show his true qualities. He was putting him through the tests. But gold is not bothered by fire and Jesus was not bothered by the machinations of the Devil. If Satan was trying to appeal to evil desires in Jesus then we may say he was trying. In that he did not have a chance, we may say he was only testing him. But there is no chance of you failing a test to tell your name and address, and Satan did not stand a chance with Jesus. His tests were well within the Savior's capabilities. 5. Does Hebrews (chapter 4) mean that Jesus was not tempted? It means tested, not tempted to do evil. Jesus was and is God. God cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13). 5b. Is that how you interpret the Hebrews passage? I prefer the word "understand" to "interpret". Again, the context of the book and the section suggests that the topic is not resisting evil but maintaining faith. Yet, whatever is not of faith is sin and Jesus was without sin. Jesus was without sin, not because he had resisted temptation to sin but because that was his nature. He was not just innocent, like Adam, but he was holy. There was no sin in him. He was holy, holy, holy. He was God. Think of it this way. All sin is against God. Jesus is God and God does not go against God. When he is tested, when he is tried, He says, "Thy will be done". Tested? Yes. Tempted to sin? No. |
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5 | Were Eve's desires sinful? | Gen 3:6 | Lionstrong | 92983 | ||
Thanks for you answer, Aixen, I don't entirely agree, but think your answers are quite clear. Again, I'll carry this no farther since this is a study better served under Hebrews 4, not here. |
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