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NASB | 1 Peter 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | 1 Peter 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah's family], were brought safely through the water. [Gen 6-8] |
Bible Question:
Greetings Joe! Let me begin by stating how much I enjoy reading your postings. I haven't read all of the threads on this subject, but I would like to get involved. There is so much involved in this debate, but it seems that most people are focusing on the extent of the atonement. So, that is where I will begin. Please consider Romans 5:17-20. Here we have a text that deals exlicitly with both the extent and the efficacy of the atonement. Romans 5:18 makes a direct comparison between the act of Adam (the fall) and the act of Christ (the Cross). In both cases, the extent is universal. Adam's sin bring condemnation on all. Christ's death brings life for all men. Now immediately we ask ourselves, if this is the case then everyone would be saved, right? Not according to the text. Romans 5:17 again makes a comparison between Adam and Christ. Only this time the issue is efficacy, not extent. According to Romans 5:17, death reigned through Adam's sin. However, the gift of righteousness only reigns in those who receive God's grace. Based on this passage, and many others, my understanding of the extent and efficacy of the atonement is as follows: 1) Concerning the extent of the atonement, Christ died for all men. 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." There is no way to limit the extent of this verse. He atoned for our (Christians) sins, and for the sins of the world (non-Christians). The passages you list do not rule out an unlimited atonement in terms of extent (in my opinion.) I don't want to blow them off, so if there is any particular point you want to discuss, I would be more than happy to dialogue with you. 2) Concerning the efficacy of the atonement, only those who receive God's grace are included in it's benefit. The "whosoever will's" are the only ones who receive the benefit of the atonement. Like you, I have studied this topic a lot over the years. I am conviced that in many ways, both sides of the debate are saying the same thing, only with a few different presuppsitons. The end result is the same under both scemes of thought, only some (the elect or those who respond) are saved. Have you ever read anything by Robert Shank? I would be curious to see what you think about his argument. He covers his thoughts in two full books, so I can't deal with all of it, but a good summary is that election is corporate, not individual. When someone responds to God's grace, he becomes a part of the elect body, the Church. He or she, then becomes a participant in all of the blessings are promises made to the elect. I'd better go, I don't want to post too long of a message. Keep up the good posts! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
Bible Answer: To me Jesus died for all living humans on earth . We hear or read God's message of redemption and we decide if we join the Body of Christ and become part of the bride. we must make the choice. Today is the day of salvation. Christ died that all might be saved Jim |