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NASB | Romans 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me [enlightened and prompted] by the Holy Spirit, |
Subject: Will Jews make it to heaven? |
Bible Note: Inquisitor, I've been looking again at the passage in John which you quoted, trying my best to see it through your eyes. I've been asking myself, if I had your theological beliefs, what in this passage would have caused me to think it defends my view? And I think I might have found it, though I'm still not certain. Perhaps your line of thinking whent something like this: "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Now perhaps looking at that your thinking goes along the lines of: it appears that John is saying that our love for Jesus, which is manifested in our keeping His commandements, seems to be prior to and the cause of God's love for us. Now, if that is what you meant to show by this verse it would be tremendously helpful if you would in addition to the verses actually give us also that interpretation so we know what it is you are trying to say by the verses. Now, if that is what you are trying to show I'd respond in two points. 1.) The IF/THEN notion here is not by any means necessarilly causal. The one who keeps my commands(loves me) will be loved by my Father. There is no notion here that it is our love/obedience which causes the Fathers love, even though such phrases (in the absence of other clear scriptures) could be interpreted that way. John is merely expressing that love of the Christ, obedience, and His love for us all go hand in hand. They are present together or absent together. 2.) Is our love/obedience the cause of God's love, or is God's love the cause of our love/obedience? And can I answer it from scripture? Well, we are quoting John, lets allow John to clearly state the answer for himself. 1Jn 4:19 We love, because He first loved us. Here we have a sentence where John is explicitly teaching which is the cause and which is the effect. So John here sheds light on the previous passage we looked at (John 14). Can we find other scripture to support this? I believe we can. Rom 9:10-13 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Now look at this passage. It says here that God loved Jacob specifically with no regards for any actions he had done either good or bad. God here goes out of His way to show that his love for Jacob preceeded anything he could have done. And we can not argue foreknowledge without harming Paul's entire arguement. Paul is striving here to show that human actions in no way caused God's choice/love here. And Paul concludes from this: Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. I hope this is sufficient to establish that God's love precedes and is the fountain of our love, not the other way around. Also, I apologize for my last post. I still think my assertions in the last post are correct, I simply wish I had been more kind in how I asserted them. In Christ, Beja |