Results 81 - 100 of 108
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Results from: Notes Author: userdoe220 Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
81 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20552 | ||
c) In God's soveriegn plan, he has made us truly free to make the choices we will to make. God already knows what choices we will make--because he is omnisceint--but that does not mean he has scripted the choices we will make. Therefore, practically, there will be a choice a) and b) and God leaves it up to us to fulfill that choice (Look at Dt 28-29. God does give them two broad choices:life and death). Within those two broad categories can be many ways in which we live those two choices in our life--a myriad of possible options for us to choose from. God just happens to know which choices we will make therefore, nothing will take Him by suprise. Still not completly satisfied with that defintion which I am paraphrasing form Geisler's book Chosen but Free. This all boils down to the typical armenianist calvanist debate--Does God know because he has pre-orchestrated everything or does he know based off of his omniscience. I have read many different books on this subject from a Calvanistic perspective--can't find a modern armenianist who has published a book on this. I don't know about you but Armenius' work and Calvins' work has put me to sleep :-) on many different occasions-- I admit there are passages that are difficult to work into my position, but at least I admit that! The only Calvanist I have ever read that admits what I admit is Geisler in his book Chosen but Free. He admits that "my passages" that I use to back up my opinion make it very difficult for his position as well! That is something I did not find in books published by Charles Ryrie, Wayne Gruden, Zane Hodges on this subject. By the way, Joe, do you know of a book published by a person from an Armenianist perspective that hasn't been dead for 300 plus years? I must admit that I don't own one book on this subject, or commentary on these passages, by an Aremenianist. :-) Funny , Huh! I enjoy the dialoge with you and lionstrong. I am reminded of the passage, "Iron sharpens Iron" and feel you have def., through many posts, given me something to think about. |
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82 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20563 | ||
Thanks for your perspective on Geisler's book. I, too, felt that Geisler was trying to shape reforemed theology in the image of armenian. Why? I think we might disagree on this, I think Geisler (who is an intellectual) like myself (up for extreme debate on weather I am one) have seen the lack of evidence and the proof text offered by Calvanist to justify their belief in sovereignty and free will debate. I don't pretend to have all the answers on this subject in my back pocket, but was pleased to see Geisler was admitting that he too felt the same way! He pointed out and made an attempt to reconcile some major contradictions in reformed thought. (which I feel was heavily influenced by platonic philosophy not the scriptures.) I will def. check out the book you have recommended after I finally read a book published by an Armenianist author on this issue. I feel 5-0 is pretty lopsided affair and if I am not convinced yet I am not sure I will ever swing over to a reformed approach on this issue. Second comment about scholarship: When you have authors writing about the "lack of scholarship" in the Christian community I have to wonder what their motives are. Are they considering someone to not be a scholar because they don't agree with them on certain issues? Another words the , "If you were a real scholar, you would naturally come to the same conclusions I have concerning God" type books. If so they are just arrogant and not scholars. If not, I might be interested in looking at their books. I too see a lot of nonsense preached from the T.V and pulpits, but don't even attempt to lump them in as people who are even trying to be "scholars" of the Christian faith. In fact they would probably be the first to admit that they are not scholars. In some sense I think the church has too many "scholars" and not enough people actually "doing" the work of the ministry. It seems like all people want to do is debate about what Christianiy is and never practice it ( I don't mind the debate part as long as the other half is equally in place). I asked my pastor recently why he spent 8 years in college to study the scriptures and how to effectively do ministry and he hides in the church 7 days a week and never does what Paul and the other apostles did--witness in the public arenas...interact and challenge the presuppositions of the world today? What are they teaching in those seminaries about ministry? I just don't see the bang for the buck from people I know who have attended. Enough ranting. If you have been to seminary, I would love to know why people that leave are so ineffective in ministry (That might be too general of a statment). They wax eloqount in philosophy and Theology but never seem to get out in the public arena and challenge others. Most of them hide in the churches and preach where it is safe--another words they "Preach to the choir". Why are our best trained servants in the church never put into action? Why do I, someone who has no seminary training, placed on the front lines of evangelism when there is someone in the church that is much better able to answer the criticism that people have to Christianity--the seminary trained pastor? |
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83 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20572 | ||
I love my pastor and since we are so close I can say things to him that I would never say to other people. In the broader context, we were talking about building a more effective church. I pointed out after the comment that he plays the key road to spear-head any action to lead the church from a "inside-only" to an "outward-thinking" church. You do have a point on him being paid therefore, he is looked at as being biased in his position. I am just frustrated everytime I drive by a packed Mormon church and ask the question, why? And when I meet their Bishop, Bruce, he is actively involved in soul-winning (I am not sure that would be a proper term.) and our pastors think they have done their job after they finish up the closing poem to their sermon. |
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84 | Ninevah did. | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20575 | ||
: c) In God's soveriegn plan, he has made us truly free to make the choices we will to make. God already knows what choices we will make--because he is omnisceint--but that does not mean he has scripted the choices we will make. Therefore, practically, there will be a choice a) and b) and God leaves it up to us to fulfill that choice (Look at Dt 28-29. God does give them two broad choices:life and death). Within those two broad categories can be many ways in which we live those two choices in our life--a myriad of possible options for us to choose from. God just happens to know which choices we will make therefore, nothing will take Him by suprise. Still not completly satisfied with that defintion which I am paraphrasing form Geisler's book Chosen but Free. This all boils down to the typical armenianist calvanist debate--Does God know because he has pre-orchestrated everything or does he know based off of his omniscience. I have read many different books on this subject from a Calvanistic perspective--can't find a modern armenianist who has published a book on this. I don't know about you but Armenius' work and Calvins' work has put me to sleep :-) on many different occasions-- I admit there are passages that are difficult to work into my position, but at least I admit that! The only Calvanist I have ever read that admits what I admit is Geisler in his book Chosen but Free. He admits that "my passages" that I use to back up my opinion make it very difficult for his position as well! That is something I did not find in books published by Charles Ryrie, Wayne Gruden, Zane Hodges on this subject. By the way, Joe, do you know of a book published by a person from an Armenianist perspective that hasn't been dead for 300 plus years? I must admit that I don't own one book on this subject, or commentary on these passages, by an Aremenianist. :-) Funny , Huh! I enjoy the dialoge with you and lionstrong. I am reminded of the passage, "Iron sharpens Iron" and feel you have def., through many posts, given me something to think about. |
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85 | Reformed and Arminian Gospel Preaching | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20654 | ||
I must be missing something from what I see as your original post. | ||||||
86 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20655 | ||
It was a typo. The word I meant to type but fat-fingered was "Systematic Theology." |
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87 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20660 | ||
Rom 8: NO. God uses sinful acts for good but does not cause them. To derive that from the passage is completly going beyond what Paul was saying. You miss the whole point of Romans 8. The word predestination is not being used by Paul how you understand it. I could place predestination, in this verse, before foreknowledge and it would not effect my belief at all. All this verse is saying, is that God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ--Try a life of holiness to make things simpilar. Let me reword it for you so maybe you can get my point. "Those that God knew would accept Christ he has pre-determined would walk in the likeness of Christ." You, and other people I know, just jump on that word, Predestination, and run wild with it ignorign the broader context. All Paul is saying in this whole passage is that God will use the evil that man causes (Not God) to shape us into the image of his son. It does not refer to a cosmic script people are acting out. It does not refer to a list of who is saved and who is not. The word predestination is the path that each believer will take when they embrace Christ: A path to be confromed to be in His image. Mis-understanding of Calvanism results from the books and college classes I have sat under that were written or lectured to by Calvanist. So maybe your understanding of Calvanist differs from the Calvanist I have interacted with but don't tell me I have mis-understood calvanism. Let me illustrate with one doctrine: perseverance of the siants. If a person cannot walk away from his salvation is he/she really free? No. If God has determined who will be saved before eternity and who will not be saved are people really free to determine to accept Christ are not? No. That Goes for the saved and the un-saved. At best, man has apparant freedom not true freedom which is no freedom at all. You wrote: "I believe he moved on pharohs heart enough to fulfill his purposes and that is all." Two questions: 1. What is the Biblical basis for your belief here? 2. If he moves just enough to fulfill His purposes, what ISN'T part of His purposes? My question is likewise. What is the Biblical ref. you have to prove your view. You will find that you do not have one. You have none. Just the westminister confession--a creed created by man. Last but not least. The terrorist comment. I believe God will use the crash to fulfill his will, but that does not mean he orchestrated the crash. That crash was designed and carried out under the free will of man not God. God is sovereign Joe. If God is all powerful, can't he create a world in which his creation is really free to make choices? Yes. And he did. That world is the one in which we live in. The reaon I did not comment on Prv/eph is because I am limited by time. You jotted down a number of verses with a little one sentence summary. I took the time to thoroughly answer two of your passages and did not have enough time to respond to the other ones. Work calls...I must depart. |
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88 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20661 | ||
George Barna took a survey and found out that today's pastors are Better educated than ever before yet the church is facing its largest decline. Are we getting are money's worth? In my opinion a number of churches are not. I might have been to general. There are well trained seminary pastors that are making a difference. MOst hide in the ivory towers of the church office and never interact with those who are going to a very real, literal Hell. Got to run. |
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89 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20731 | ||
Ehpesians 5 does not releive the pastor of His responsibility to reach out to the lost. The apostles did not use Ephesians 5 as an excuse not to go out into the market place and share their faith with those that are lost and they are also included in the list in Ehpesians (read the Acts of the Apostles). I have been in education for 6 years now and realize the best way to teach people to act a certain way is to "act that certain way." I can't tell people to evangelize and bring the lost into the church when I don't want to place my faith on the line, risk embarassment and share the gospel with people other than the choir. I am not against scholarship; I am against Christianity becoming more of philosophy than a way of life. If you were to suscribe to CBD you would realize that the church does have enough scholars its just people are not reading or listening to them. |
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90 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20732 | ||
Joe, I am swamped this week at work and will not be able to get around to answering your post. I plan on buying White's book this weekend and reading it. I am interested in seeing what he has to say. I think there is a number of things we can very much agree on when it comes to the nature and attributes of God. I just feel that God knows what we are going to choose based on His forknowledge (He knows our free choice in each matter) and not becuase he has scripted out all the events of history. I think there is a better way to understand the myriad of verses in the Bible where God gives His creation choices to make in life--the are truly free, not apparantly free, to make choice a or choice b. I have got to get back to work. I will try and summarize and wrap things up when I log back in. |
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91 | Reformed and Arminian Gospel Preaching | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20825 | ||
Armenian: God died for all people. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. God's wonderful plan--to be conformed into the image of Christ. Not too much of a difference. Reformed just replaces "all" with "some". |
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92 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20828 | ||
Not only have I spent a day with him, I have spent weeks with him. He is not only my Pastor, he is one of my best friends. Our families spend weekends together, go to the Dallas zoo, go on vacations together in colorodo, etc,. Our relationship is so close that I can make personal statments to him without him taking offense. Why? He knows my heart and I know his and he knows that I will do whatever it takes to not just mount a critique but help find and implement the solution. If the pastor's are performing "crisis evangelism" that would be "getting out into the world" in my book. If the pastor is doing "prison ministry" that would be "getting out into the world" in my book. Whenever a pastor interacts with people other than those from his church and takes that opportunity to open a door for future conversations about Christ--He is doing exactly what I am talking about. That would also include "body evangelism". The problem is so many pastors do none of the above and beat their sheep because they are not doing it! I don't know how many sermons I have heard on the great commission and the railing rebuke that follows because the church (their assembly)is not going out to the highways and by-ways compelling the masses to come in. My simple question is, "Why aren't you doing it, Pastor?" I don't think that is too much to ask for. I agree with you on the need for good christian scholarship and the probable cause of the lack of scholarship in the church. the church has plenty of good scholars but, most people choose not to read the great works that are out there and pastors--thanks to Willow Creek community church and other church growth seminars--are reluctant to preach deep theological messages. I have all the willow creek stuff and have been to the seminar. Just thought I would cut that response off before it is made. :-) Of course I can never respond to the "you just don't understand what was being said at the conference" response that is bound to come up. When pastors are strong-armed and their whole worth centers around how many people are sitting in the pew, the pressure forces them to shift into a "what works" mentality. I emphatize greatly with the stress that pastors face every day. Why? I was one. We def. need to pray for our pastors. They are under a huge amount of stress and pressure to increase their churches numerically in a society that seems to want nothing to do with the Christian message. I could go on and on about my expereinces in this area, but will choose not to bore those in the forum. I will close with this. I would never aske anyone in my congregation to go out and share their faith with others if I was not willing to and currently doing so myself. |
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93 | Reformed and Arminian Gospel Preaching | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20831 | ||
Yes, it would make a great deal of difference if you and I were included as being one of the redeemed. | ||||||
94 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20855 | ||
When I read your last write-up i came to the same conclusion. | ||||||
95 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21842 | ||
I am sorry it took so long to respond. I have been swamped at work and am squeezing this post in during my lunch. “Why do you feel you have the liberty to rearrange the order Paul set for his "golden chain of redemption"? Those he FOREKNEW, he PREDESTINED, he CALLED, JUSTIFIED, GLORIFIED. All of these are describing the same group of people. Who is the subject of all of these verbs? Who is the object? Again, the verse clearly indicates that God did not foreknow events, but rather PEOPLE. “ I agree 100 percent! I am glad you have come to a common Armenianist assumption: God’s foreknowledge comes before his predetermined path! RC Sproul, however, would string you up and shoot you for conceding that point to an Armenianist in this debate. J RC jumbles this list up and places Predestined as first on the list in the ordered chain, because it is the only way the passage will make sense—In his Theology. My point, however, wasn’t on the ordering of words in this verse but the overall purpose (intent) of this verse in the scheme of Romans 8. This verse, in my humble opinion, has nothing to do with God determining who or who will not be saved; it has everything to do with God “knowing” who will be saved and off of God’s knowledge determining a pathway of holiness for his elect people! That will teach and preach in both camps. Lets look at this one verse again. “For those who God forknew he predestined…” God knew before time who would accept the free offer of salvation (we both agree on that). Off of God’s knowledge he has predestined, not salvation, but that each person who makes that choice “Should be conformed to the likeness of His son.” That is not salvation that sounds like Sanctification to me. God predestined each believer (those he foreknew would make the correct choice) to live a holy life. God knows who will be saved not because he created some to be saved and some to be lost but because of His foreknowledge. Each person that is saved is predestined to a lifestyle of holiness or to put it in Paul’s language “conformed to the likeness of His son.” |
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96 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21844 | ||
“You write: "1. What is the Biblical basis for your belief here?" Aside from the other verses I quoted…” There are other ways you can approach each verse you quoted in prior posts that does justice to both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man—God knows the choices we will make because of His foreknowledge not because He has determined EVERY event that happens. A number of verses (Gen, Jer, IS. verses in particular) you quoted in past posts deal with God sending other nations to bring about judgment on Israel for willingly choosing to disobey God (I am sure we can both agree on this statement). It is a far jump, in my mind, to take those verses and say because God wanted a specific event to happen God has determined ALL events that happen both past and present. Romans 9:18-24 These passages again deal with the Israel question: What is God’s plan for Israel after the cross (Wow! That question is almost as hot as the calvanist arminianist debate.) How does Israel fit into this new economy? If you look at the passages quoted from Jeremiah that Paul uses, you will see that Israel was placed in their predicament as an act of their own free will! The predetermined plan God was fulfilling was based on Israel’s choice not something determined by God before the foundation of the Earth. If Israel makes the correct choice, the potter, God, will make them into a vessel of honor. If Israel makes the wrong choice, the potter, God, will make them into a vessel of dishonor. Jer 18:5-10 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and IF THAT NATION I WARN REPENTS of its evil, then I WILL RELENT and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and IF IT DOES EVIL in my sight and DOES NOT OBEY me, THEN I WILL RECONSIDER the good I had intended to do for it. NIV Paul even concedes this point in the last few verses that close this chapter: Rom 9:30-33 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because THEY PURSUED it not by faith but as if it were by works. THEY STUMBLED "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV Notice some key words…They pursued….They stumbled. The emphasis on their situation was based upon the poor choices they made not something God determined they would before the dawn of time. God did determine that if they did make poor choices He would punish them, but He did not decree that Israel would reject Him. What about the hypothetical questions that occur throughout the 8th chapter of the book of Romans? God did choose the older child to serve the younger. God did use pharaoh to bring about judgment on Israel. God did, through the death of Christ, seem to change Israel’s position in the scheme of things (Don’t want to debate this issue.) which made them a vessel of dishonor. But does that mean that God DETERMINES EVERYTHING? My answer is no. God does have a plan and He does intervene in the affairs of men, but that does not mean He has dictated EVERY event that is going to happen and that has happened. It goes back to the jump in logic: God intervened in X situation therefore he must INTERVENE or DETERMINE the outcome of ALL situations. I can’t make that jump. |
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97 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21845 | ||
”1. God can do what He wants according to his own unchangeable nature. The question isn't "what can God do?," but rather "what HAS he done?" “ Joe, he did create a world full of beings that are able to make free choices. When I say free, I do not mean that we make choices in a vacuum. A casual read through the O.T and N.T. reveals that men, women, and nations were faced with REAL choices. The pre-exilic prophets clearly paint a picture of Israel at the crossroads: Serve God or Reject God. Their future was determined by their actions not what God had determined they would do before time began. Why would God present them with a choice if He had already determined the choice they would make? ”2. Please go back and re-read my previous post beginning with: "One last thing: you seem to be under the common misunderstanding that Calvinists believe that the sovereignty of God means that man does not make his own decisions." I have never stated than man is not free at all to make choices. I have said that man is not ultimately free, because he is bound by his nature and by circumstance. Within those two bounds we have complete freedom. Let me give you a concrete example. Let's say in my free will I purpose in my heart to invade Libya and rename it Joeland. I have the will to do that, but I think we would agree that I am not in a situation to carry out my will, because God has not allowed me to be in a position of enough means and power to do so. The unregenerate likewise are limited by something else: the depravity of their nature. They have a range of choices that they can make in life, but they will not ever will to do anything that honors God. Paul declares that the unsaved are unable to please God at all because they are completely enslaved to their sinful nature. This does not mean that they want to do what is right but can't, but rather that they don't WANT to do what is right in the first place, or at least not from the right motives. “ Not much to work with in your scenario because it is very unrealistic. I do, however, understand where you are heading and still disagree with Reformed Theologians on this issue. First, let me point out something we can both agree on: No choice is made in a vacuum. We all have external influences that will affect our choices; therefore some philosophers have come to the conclusion that no one is free. All freedom is just an illusion because every choice we make is predetermined by how we were raised, the country we grew up in, what side of the tracks we were born on etc. I would say on some level we never completely make a free choice. Two, In order for God to determine everything that happened in the past and everything that will happen in the future, God will have to place barriers before individuals to accomplish his will. If Sally was presented the option of choosing X or Y but God determined that Sally would choose Y God would have to place a barrier in front of choice X. Another words, God is going to have to make choice Y more attractive than Choice X. Or God is going to have to take choice X completely out of Sally’s equation—Kind of like taking over JoeLand. You really had no choice before you. When God does that to Sally, we go back to the illusion of freedom concept. Sally thinks she is making her own choices, but something more than just external influences (her social standing, the side of the tracks she was born on etc.) has already made her decision for her—God. This would take the Nihilist concept of no freedom to the next higher level. We not only combat our environment, but we also have to contend with what God has already determined would happen. So, I still don’t feel I do not understand Reformed Theology and feel you have presented it clearly but like all other presenters. I just don’t buy into it. |
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98 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21846 | ||
I could not place everything in one post. I tried to post in logical divisions. Sorry. | ||||||
99 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21896 | ||
I can tell that you are attempting to drag this discussion down into the ditch so I will discontinue the converstion before one says something they regret. It is amazing how individuals hide behind a forum and say stuff they would NEVER say verbatim to peoples faces. If I am wrong about RC Sproul, just simply say "You know schwatzkm, I am not sure you grasped fully what RC was teaching." Or "Could you tell me where you got that piece of info. from. I have never understood RC to say anything like that." THe way you handled the situation shows your spiritual immaturity. About RC Sproul, I heard him do a full 1/2 hour segment jumbling up the "Godlen chain of redemption." I know what I heard and will search his website in an attempt to purchase his tape. The reason why it stuck out in my mind was the gymnastics he went through to jumble up the passage. |
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100 | Why do we disagree? | 1 Thessalonians | userdoe220 | 9347 | ||
As long as we are human and living on this earth, we will look at different theological issues and arrive at different concusions. I don't believe Jesus/God sees anything wrong with people who beleive the Bible teaches something a certain way choosing to fellowship together! I belong to a Hillcrest Christian Church (they say they are not a denomination, but if it walks like a duck and quackes like a duck it is a duck. They have calvanists/armenianists/pentecostals/charismatics all under one roof. Each Sunday school class is a knock-down drag out fight! When new converts come into the church, the single-most voiced complaint is, "All of this stuff is so confusing. Christianity is way to hard to understand!" I can't help to think that if all the armenianist in our church would gather together. And all the calvanist in our church would gather together. Sunday school and church would be much more enjoyable. I don't see and will never be convinced that God wants us all together under one roof just to argue on our day of rest! So, I don't see why it is bad for people to read/study the scriptures and go to a "denomination" that best lines up with what they believe the Bible teaches. Even if that denomination bears the label of a Christian Church. |
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