Results 481 - 500 of 517
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Results from: Notes Author: Beja Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
481 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228600 | ||
Tim, After my first post I think the garden illustration may help. If you are suggesting that it is possible to have a garden free from weeds then I will have no major qualms with you. If you suggest that in this life we can ever be done "weeding" in order to make that so then we have disagreement. In the next life we will have no need to even weed. And THAT is what I would call entire sanctification. And that may help or not help at all! :) In Christ, Beja |
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482 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228604 | ||
Ed, I recently made a post (228468) regarding a study of sanctification I did. In which I explained why sanctification sometimes is used as if it is a one time accomplished event such as in Heb 10:10, yet at the same time can be treated as something we must pursue in an ongoing fashion such as in Heb 12:14. I don't know if it will, but perhaps that post will be helpful to you. With regards to Romans 7, I'd humbly suggest that we've been asking the wrong question. I do not believe trying to determine "saved or loss" best helps us understand the point. The point is the law's inability to help us. Be we saved or loss it is not by power of the law that we can accomplish holiness of heart and behavior, but only by the power of God's spirit working in us. For scripture I simply suggest you read Romans Chapters 5-8 again with that thought in mind and see if it isn't helpful. In Christ, Beja |
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483 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228613 | ||
EdB, Yes, I agree with your assessment of 1 John 2:8. It says that the darkness is "passing way" as in that it is not completely gone but in the process of passing. Another verse is James 3:2 Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. Now I think without doubt that James here is speaking to believers. Also another passage I think you should give great attention to is in Philippians 3. For space considerations I will not copy the whole chapter here, but I urge you to go back and read it in context. Php 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Php 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; Paul here emphasises that he has not already become perfect yet he presses on to that. Then he says that we ought to have the same exact attitude. I am not perfect yet I press on to perfection. And ofcourse then he says that as many as are "perfect" ought to have this attitude. I think here Paul has intentionally put is in a bind. Now we who might be tempted to thinking we are "perfect" must confess and believe that we are not as a condition of it! Either Paul has lost his mind and is contradicting himself or he has seen fit to say "perfect" the second time in a bit of a tongue in cheek fashion. He says if you are "pefect", then admit you are not perfect. In my opinion James and Paul in Philippians make a much stronger case than Romans 7, as I said in my previous post, I think Romans 7 has the intentions of showing the failure of the law to create righteousness in us rather than any attempt to describe a lost or saved person in particular. I might could think of more passages but this will suffice I think. In Christ, Beja |
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484 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228615 | ||
Tim, Very helpful, thank you. I think the root is that "entire sanctification" really isn't a term scripture uses. So when you said it, I did indeed think of what scripture is calling glorification, the essence of which is the absolute perfect completion of the sanctification begun on earth. I think we may have some minor disagreements if we dig long enough, but I am happy rather to see what we have in harmony. In Christ, Beja |
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485 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228625 | ||
EdB, Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. Here it speaks of sin being dead apart from the law. And in Chapter seven the primary emphasis is that we died to the law. So now, without the law being the determing factor in our justification or condemnation, sin is powerless. For sin can only slay us when the commandment hangs over us which says, "the soul who sins shall die." (Ezek 18:4). So by dying, in Christ, to the law sin is now powerless to condem us through the law. However, we should not go on to say that sinfulness or holiness has nothing to do with our salvation or fate. Paul has affirmed in multiple places that it does. 1 Cor 6:9,10 Ephesians 5:5,6 Galatians 5:19,20. And again Hebrews warns us in Hebrews 12:14. But the key is to see in what way they have to do with our fate and salvation. And the answer to that is that they are NOT how we aquire salvation, but rather are part of that salvation which has been aquired for us by Christ. I say this from Ezekiel 36:25-27 and the new covenant in Hebrews 8. What Christ has purchased for us is forgiveness from sin immediately, ongoing and certain growth in Christ-likeness/holiness in this life, and ultimate perfection of the same in the life to come. So while turning from sin has nothing to do with how we RECEIVE the salvation, it does have a very great deal to do with our salvation. All, save easy believism advocates, will agree on this. At least I presume all in this discussion agree to the pattern of salvation by faith, then growing sanctification in this life, and finally glorification in the age to come. The only matter of debate on the table is how far we can actually come in our progress in sanctification in this life. All agree it will be progressive, non suggest it goes so far as glorification (I hope). Now in Christ, sin is dead to us in two senses. First, it has lost all power to condem because the law has utterly been satisfied on our account. Second, it is dead because it is fading and ready to pass. The Holy Spirit is continually working it out of our lives. And as Tim has pointed out it is no longer our slave master. (See Romans 6) Meaning that by the power of the spirit we can arm ourselves and defeat sin in our lives in a practical way. However, and this is the limit of sanctification in this life, that constant fight of battling and removing sin will never be finished in this life, as I showed from Philippians. Now why is Jesus still making intercession for us? We ought not understand this as if he is continually having to plead with the Father on our behalf as if the Father really wants to smite us but everytime he proceeds to the Son comes up with some good reason for him to not do so (Luke 12:32). Rather let us take our understanding from the priestly work in the old testament. First the sacrifice was made, but then the work was not done. Next, the priest had to make the actually intercession. But here we learn something, this intercession was merely an application of the blood to its intended recipient, and a display of the sacrifice by its blood. This is what we should understand of Christ's interceding work. He is continual in God's presence as a ongoing display to God of our clensing sacrifice. And He sends the Spirit to apply that sacrifice through clensing through the Spirit, His Word, and Faith. Now, this intercession matters with regards to our sanctification. First, because all of our sanctification depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit in us. (philipians 2:12,13). Second, because it is Christ who has ascended into the presence of the father, received the Holy Spirit, and sent it to us for our salvation, sanctification, and comfort. Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. So Christ's intercession is his evidencing our justifying sacrifice in the presence of God, and then sending on the Holy Spirit which God has granted as a result of his work. And through this Spirit God accomplishes what the law couldn't, namely to cause us to repent and become conformed to godliness. Because the law was weak due to our own flesh, but the spirit is Christ in us unto righteousness and life. Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. In Christ, Beja |
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486 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228638 | ||
EdB, It was I who quoted those passages in the very post you are responding to. And I explained how they fit in. Though I know you are responding to many posts so the mix up is understandable. In Christ, Beja |
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487 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228643 | ||
EdB, I have explained it a few times. Let me try a more ground up approach. 1. All sin will be judged by God. That has always been the problem, sin and judgement from God upon sin. Nothing has changed there. 2. Christ died to pay the punishment for all those who believe upon him. That has always been the answer, nothing has changed. 3. All those who receive Christ has not merely received the benefits of his death, but the benefit of an ongoing union with him in life. 4. All those who enjoy this benefit will continually become more and more holy in practice by the Holy Spirit working in them. 5. Therefore, all those who are saved, will by the power of the Holy Spirit, also be people who practice Holy Lives. Not utterly sinless lives, but lives that have conquered sin such that we, in a relative way, can see a progressed holiness. 6. Therefore it is true, that only those who overcome sin will be saved in that day in which God judges all flesh, as stated in those verses which we are discussing. Therefore it is true there is a holiness without which nobody will see God (Heb 12:14). Therefore it is true that sin will not have dominion over us. Therefore it is true that those with lives completely overcomed by these sins will not be saved in that day. 7. We must understand, the things in point 6 do not "save us" or merit our salvation. They are what God do to a saved person after they are saved. One of the major problems in your attempt to understand this is that you fail to realize who what passages are speaking to. You said: "Romans 6-8 says we are free yet various other places still list the penalty of sin. Which is it are we free or not. Or have we not been looking at these passages and understandin what they say." When scripture says the penalty for sin is death, that is what is true for those who do not have Christ. When scripture says that we are free from sin, or that sin will not have dominion over us, or any such thing, that is said to those who are in Christ, who have through faith had Christ die that death penalty for us. How can you ask which it is? It is one for those without Christ, and the other for those who have Christ. Now if you are inclined to say, "Yes, but what scripture do you use to support any of this?" then I urge you to reread my posts in this thread where I did defend these things with passages, or at least any point of it I thought would be contested. I am saying nothing in this post I have not been saying the entire thread. In Christ, Beja |
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488 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228644 | ||
EdB, I say this with love, and aim to your edification. But the problem here is not that you haven't been given scripture, rather you are not understanding the scriptures you are given. I recommend that you begin reading the puritans. Over time they will give you the framework you need to understand how all this fits. I know you will say that you do not care what they say, but rather what does scripture say? However, they are only trying to explain scripture to you. And God has given us teachers for this very puprose (Eph 4). You need men who well understood sanctification, the holy spirit's work, its relation to justification and other things besides these. The puritans would do you well. Here are some recommendations. Holiness by J.C. Ryle Saving Faith by John Colquhoun Evangelical Repentence by John Colquhoun John Owen's work on the glory of Christ and the Holy Spirit The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification by Walter Marshal Though I have not read it (its on my stack to read) I am expecting John Murray's "Redemption accomplished and applied" to be very helpful on this topic. Sola Scriptura never meant to not let learned men explain and teach you the right sense of the word of God. These books would be a great blessing to you. Think of it as simply going to them to ask them just like you are going to this forum to ask us. Hear their oppinion, weigh it by scripture and I think you will be blessed. In Christ, Beja |
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489 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228647 | ||
Biblicalman, I would suggest that its not quite as simple as a contrast between past and present tense when we actually analize the passage. You say the shift takes place at vers 13/14. Lets look at it. Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. Paul asks a question of how to rightly interpret the past tense scenerio of sin slaying him through the law. Then following that, he gives the basis for how he understands the past tense event of sin slaying him. And every verse after that is basically a sting of "For" statements. Meaning that all your present tense section is a study of this past tense event of law sin and death that occured. Meaning a strong case can be made for the historical present as this section is all implicitly past tense since it is an explination of a past tense event. Context is king. My opinion of the passage is no the same as either yours or Tim's, but the case is not going to stand or fall on the shift to present tense. In Christ, Beja |
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490 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228649 | ||
Thread, I will just reply to my own post and give how I consider Romans 7. I want to say this issue that we are discussing does not stand or fall with Romans 7, but clearly it is of great interest. The context of this entire section is the question in Rom 6. Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Paul has just spent a great deal of time in Romans defending that we are freely justified by Faith in Christ apart from any works of the law. Now Paul is dealing with the natural question which follows. If we are teaching that the law and obedience to it has no role in our justification, does that doctrine not turn us to sinful living? The correct preaching of the gospel begs this question. Salvation by grace through faith apart from works is shocking. So then Paul is trying to answer this question. That is his goal in chapters 6-8. Now ultimately his answer through this section summarized is, "No, it does not lead to sinful living because we are under grace. And God's grace has been unleashed upon our lives to effectively turn us to holiness through the working of the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit succeeds in a way nothing else could." Now, also in this section Paul is dealing with a notion implicit to his oppositions case. That the law is necessary for us to live right. If the gospel dethrones the law as a taskmaster, didn't we need that to spur us to good works? This Paul addresses in Chapters 7, his goal here is one thing, to show that the Law was NEVER able to lead us to righteous behavior, all it could ever produce was death. So the question here is not is this lost or saved, but the focus is on the inability of the Law to produce holiness in us whether we are lost or saved. Therefore it is the gospel in unleashing the grace of God and the Holy Spirit upon us which causes holy living, not the law. In Christ, Beja |
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491 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228658 | ||
EdB, I understand. And I think we have to give a bit of grace here. It is very hard to say for certainty exactly what Paul ment by some of the phrases in Romans 6-8, especially chapter 6, and I can not myself fault anybody else for struggling to explain them since I too struggle in it. I have had more fruitful study personally trying to grasp the flow of that section instead. Sometimes it is easier to see what Paul believes he has just proven a few verses or chapters later! :) But we labor on, studying the word, and letting our suggested interpretation be refined by well-meant criticism, both by the living such as on this forum, and by the dead through the writings they have left us. I have certainly enjoyed the thread. In Christ, Beja |
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492 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228663 | ||
Biblicalman, In an admitedly long and complex thread, I think you've failed to follow my posts. No blame there, as they may not be worth following. I say this because you are proceeding as if you think I am suggesting Paul was perfect. This is not at all what I believe. I do not think Paul was sinless. And I do not think the point of Rom 7 is to describe a lost man. I think Paul battled sin like every other man. I have even argued as much in this thread from Philippians 3. I simply do not agree that Romans 7's point is whether it is describing lost or savedd. And this ofcourse debunks your entire theory that I am interpreting it due to "wanting to see Paul as perfect." I disagree with you because I think your tense shift arguement holds no water. See post 228649 if you want to see my thoughts on what Romans 7 is actually trying to say. Also, I urge you to have no hesitancy to reply to my posts due to me being "another teacher." I ask nobody to be a respector of persons, I only ask hesitency to reply if they haven't actually read what I have said. In Christ, Beja |
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493 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228695 | ||
Tim, Surely you aren't suggesting the total absence of something in us that is still yearning towards sin, flesh, sin nature? Gal 5:16,17 seem to clearly be painting a present struggle in Christians, even though I grant that verse 24 is teaching that true Christians can be identified as the ones who are having some victory to show in this struggle. Am I missunderstanding you or do you agree with this? You can't simply categorize it as if only the phrase "old man" is referring to this discussion and limit it to those passages. Ephesians 4 refers to this as the "old self." Does "Old self" not have import for this discussion? It says with regards to the Old Self, its something we are in the process of putting off and putting on the new self. Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. I think scripture does teach that we have a conflict. If you want to refrain from calling it "two natures" that is fine. I think scripture does seem to try to paint it as something that is outside of a Christian, or perhaps an invading thing inside the Christian yet distinct. But surely you admit that a struggle is still there to be fought due to ongoing temptations that actually do kindle our desires. In Christ, Beja |
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494 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | Beja | 228714 | ||
Tim, Thanks for your reply, I'll follow the same format as I ask for clarification. 1.) I understand that you see a saved individual as winning, but I am wondering if you grant that it is in fact a battle? Now I would suggest that we don't always win this battle, but lets put that aside. In your mind, though we who live by the spirit do win over the flesh, do you grant that it is a battle, a stuggle in the sense that we must put our minds to doing so since there is an opposing drive to be overcome? 2. On Ephesians 4, I readily grant that aorist tense in these would typically indicate a one time action, but also keep in mind that aorist serves greatly as an "unmarked" tense as well. In other words if Paul was simply not trying to stress aspect, this is how he would have done it. However, I base what I'm saying on the fact that it is a current command. He is instructing saved souls to do this now, and is not looking at it as something already finished. Perhaps you disagree still with my interpretations of Ephesians. And I'm not trying to sway you from your view but rather understand it. I am wondering if you see the Christian as in the process of putting to death old habits and sinful inclinations. However, much victory your ascribe to a christian in it, are we now doing so. That is what I refer to as a struggle. When I suggest there is a struggle I do not mean to suggest a Christian living in defeat. BTW, I think in many places scripture uses an already not yet with regards to the old man being crucified. It has been accomplished, yet being brought into realization over time. We know scripture often speaks of things this way. I'd offer the topic of "all things being placed in subjection to Christ" as an example. See Ephesians 1:22 and 1 Cor 15:27,28. One might easily argue that God has (aorist) put all things under his feet. Yet we see that it is still ongoing. I would argue a similiar scenario with regards to the past tense accomplishing of our sanctification and the ongoing process of our sanctification. I am doubtful you'll agree on that point, but do let me know in what sense you would say the Christian is still battling sin, if at all. In Christ, Beja |
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495 | Actual bodies in heaven? | 1 John 3:2 | Beja | 213897 | ||
I'm sorry if what I posted made it sound like we don't know what state we are going to be in, that is not at all what I meant. It is my opinion that what John was talking about in the verse I posted was that we aren't sure all the ways our heavenly bodies (as it is called by paul) are going to be distinct from our earthly ones. I think that is all he was referring to, not that it is uncertain if we will have human bodies. If my post sounded that way then I certainly apologize. Like I said though, the high light for me is going to be that we finally are free from this cursed inclination towards sin, that we can finally stop being our own worst enemies as far as righteousness is concerned. The main point I was wanting to introduce is that there is no need to speculate as to every aspect of what is going to be different since it is clearly not known. Thank you for clarifying my post if it sounded as if it meant more. In Love, Beja |
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496 | Actual bodies in heaven? | 1 John 3:2 | Beja | 214060 | ||
Bill, 1 Peter 1:20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." We see that the Bible does claim to be inspired by God and therefore not by man's authority. It is not Jesus versus Peter, it is Jesus along with the other word's of God. 2 Peter 3: 15-16 "our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." And here we see Peter claim that Paul's writing are also to be considered scripture. As well the key comment about the wisdom that was "given him." Paul's teaching was given him by God, which he defends very aggresively in Galatians. Scripture clearly teaches its own authority and inspiration by God. But lets take a look at something Christ Himself said since that is your focus. Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." We can see clearly that Jesus Himself rebukes anybody who would teach that the Law is invalid. This would be Moses, whom you said a Christian shouldn't be teaching you to follow. Scripture is an all or none I'm afraid. Any part you wish to choose will rebuke you for the part you reject. Every part of it is inspired by God and therefore inerrent. Finally, I want to bring up what might be a touchy correction. And that is that I would gently and humbly ask you to beware pride. That may sound like a surprising thing for me to say but there is one thing that is absolutely essential to your view. And that thing is that in order to believe what you say, you must assume that essentially every Christian throughout history must be deluded and not intelligent enough to see what you deem obvious. I assure you many men of which we will be hard pressed to find their equal today has set their minds to these things. Yet you hold your mind to have trumped them all. Now I do not suggest that you have ever openly thought of it this way, but whether you have or not you must believe that in order to so freely correct all of Christian history. Beware pride, friend. 1 Cor 3:18 "Let no man deceive himself If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise" In Love, Beja |
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497 | Actual bodies in heaven? | 1 John 3:2 | Beja | 214065 | ||
Bill, First of many points and perhaps most importantly, you responded to nothing I said previously. I mean this in the sense that you apparently had no ability to show those scriptures either invalid, or misrepresented by myself. If you and I are actually going to arrive anywhere in a discussion, those points must be dealt with. Because a trust in scripture is the only starting point we could possibly have. Now, you did respond to what I said in another sense, in that you suggested to me that the implications of what I am saying would not be something I hold to and therefore I myself must abandon the statement because of that. That appears to me to be your logic in your last post. Your critiques however show that you do not understand any of what a person with my views actually believes. I'd like to state a few that would help with some of your specific objections. I'm not going to spend the time scripture hunting for all these, I have no illusions of convincing you of anything at this point, I merely want to give you a hint of what scripture teaches in these things. First, the Old Testament Law consists of two parts, the moral law and the ceremonial law. The moral law consists of right and wrong, the cermonial law were simply temporary ordinances which were meant to depict what was coming in Christ. When Christ came, he did away with the ceremonial law because all these were pointing to something coming in Him. (I say these things not from picking and choosing but because this is what scripture says about itself) So things like eating regulations, sowing a field with two seeds, mixed cloths in clothing, sacrificial system, all this was done away with. The laws concerning right and wrong and morality however remain in a sense. The reason being, that even though Christ has destroyed the law's ability to condemn those who have faith in Christ, the moral law is still a picture of perfect righteousness, and hence how are we to dicard something such as that? Another major problem is you seem to be unable to grasp the concept of one time commands. You remarked that we would need to kill our enemies such as Moses or Joshua. Surely anybody of any intelligence at all can see that in such passages God is commanding the death of certain particular sinners by the hands of His people rather than commanding some holy jihad against our enemies! Lets not throw out such silly statements as we discuss these things, for you know that there is no compulsion to see scripture in that way. In short, the fact that scripture is all or none does not mean to rob scripture of its own sense of progressive revelation that it teaches! The scripture shows us how to interpret such things, so believeing all of scripture to be inerrant forces none of the silly things that you are accusing us of. Also, with regards to Jesus' gospel we certainly should not take his Isaiah teaching as a comprehensive explination of His gospel! Jesus Himself never even said as much, he simply said that today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing. You seem to be completely unaware of all the many statements Jesus said concerning those who believe in him have life and those who do not don't. He fleshes out His Gospel in many places in his own teachings, friend. There is so many things you are saying to correct that I can not hope to correct them all, and even if I could you would not hear because you begin with the most fundamental error of all. That God's word is not trustworthy. Oh, and yes, I do believe 5 point calvinism, and I think you'll find it in the gospel of John if you want to hear it from Jesus. A good deal of it can be found in John chapter 6. In Love, Beja |
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498 | John 10:10 Who is responsible for death? | Rev 1:18 | Beja | 236817 | ||
Doc, A fit response, sir. Well said. In Christ, Beja |
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499 | Crowns we cast at Jesus feet real or not | Rev 4:10 | Beja | 224145 | ||
Just my opinion on the crowns. I think we've sorely missed the type of language used on these. Are we suggesting that we are going to have a large hat wardrobe in heaven? Shall we coordinate and all decide that today is the crown of rejoicing day, and another day we shall wear our crown of life? Honestly I think we've missed the point. The crown of life, is not a crown, it is life. The notion of crown is a metaphor. The crown is the thing itself. When God says He will give us the crown of life, he means that He will give us the reward of life. When He gives us the crown of righteousness He is saying to give us righteousness. A crown is a metaphor for the thing itself. So with this in mind, we are not going to throw down our righteousness, our life, and our rejoicing literally at the feet of Jesus. IF we wish to say that is what the 24 elders in Revelations represents (which I don't agree with) then at the very least we should say it is a complete acknowledging that all these things are from God alone and not ourselves, certainly not literally throwing down a wardrobe of crowns. Again, just my interpretation of the passages. This certainly is not an issue worth dividing anybody. But I highly encourage anybody interested to look at the verse references that have been giving and see if you don't agree. In Christ, Beja |
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500 | torment in hell annihilation in the lake | Rev 19:20 | Beja | 241207 | ||
EdB, I'm not an anhilationist but just to be fair, if you are referring to Rev 20:10 there is not actually a present tense verb there in the greek. The verb is left implied. In Christ, Beja |
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