Results 21 - 40 of 48
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Results from: Notes Author: Zsuzsi Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | "Least in the kingdom of God"? | Matt 11:11 | Zsuzsi | 123275 | ||
Greetings Ralph, "Did you notice that no one sent Emmaus a note to back off the JW rhetoric?" Yes, I did. But did you notice that his note was a simple, objective statement about the viewpoint what VictorA's posts reflected? He did not say, either directly or indirectly, "Don't be deceived by him", or "he is a religious bigot", or anything alike. Hence the no replies... My answers to your questions: 1) If Adam did not sin, how long would he have lived? Forever. 2) What would the earth look like if sin had not entered the world? It would be the Garden of Eden, or Paradise. 3) What does this tell you about God's original purpose for the earth? The earth was to provide people with food and everything they needed in their lives. :-) If in your question you rather mean 'people' instead of 'the earth', His original purpose for man was to rule over all His creation, to His good pleasure, according to Genesis 1. But God's original purpose for man has changed; as He revealed through Jesus and His prophets, He will first destroy all the earth, then rebuild it and allow only His own to enter His kingdom. See, for example, the book of Micah. I could have chosen the book of any other prophet but I like Micah because it is very concise: "Therefore, the LORD says: 'I am planning disaster against this people, from which you cannot save yourselves. You will no longer walk proudly, for it will be a time of calamity.'" Micah 2:3 "In that day," declares the LORD, I will gather the lame; I will assemble the exiles and those I have brought to grief. I will make the lame a remnant, those driven away a strong nation. The LORD will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever." Micah 4:6-7 Jesus is the same LORD who will rule over all the earth: "He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. And he will be their peace." Micah 5:4-5 (Read Micah 5:1-5; Jesus is the Promised Ruler, coming from Bethlehem..) This does NOT mean that Satan has destroyed God's plan; but personally I would think we have to give God the right to change His Mind any time He wishes! (There have been examples that He was grieved about what He had done, and did something which was not part of His 'original' plan; again, because of the iniquity of men. See Gen 6, the story of Noah.) We, sinners, humans, all of us, should have been cast to eternal damnation; but what is waiting for the reborn is actually better than what He originally planned for mankind, and that is because He is extraordinarily Gracious, to say the least. If we are born of the Spirit, we are not merely animal-like, instint-led humans any more; we are one with Him, and heirs of the eternal Kingdom. God's purpose for us is no longer to eat and drink and reproduce but to be completely united with Him! And that makes much sense to me. I do not know about you, but my wish for eternity is not to have my own planet to rule over, I can hardly keep my 10sqm room tidy and organized.. Neither do I dream about lying around and bearing children one after the other, or butchering animals for myself - by the way, would they just get cooked and ready for dinner all by themselves in your ideal picture of heaven? Personally I am rather looking forward to resting forever in a tiny corner of the Merciful Heart of my Lord Jesus; in peace, comfort and security, nourished by His Warmth and His Love - the Everlasting Water He promised to fill our thirst with. And I will be happy and satisfied - that is my hope, faith and driving force. :-) You are fully entitled to prefer the butchery, though. "Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy." Micah 7:18 This is indeed fundamental, uncomplicated and beautiful to ponder for humans... :-) (To be continued) |
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22 | "Least in the kingdom of God"? | Matt 11:11 | Zsuzsi | 123276 | ||
"As for as Isaiah 9:6, I am not familiar with the questionable translation that includes "Almighty" rather than the correct "mighty."" I do apologize, to both God and to you: you are right: I just checked and it is actually 'mighty' instead of 'almighty', in all the translations I have found. I am sincerely sorry. But I do not see what difference it makes with respect to the following "God" and "Everlasting Father"... "Phillipians 2:5,6 speaks for itself in that Paul encourages us to have Jesus' humble attitude - not to grasp at something that does not belong to us, but to submit ourselves to the only true, invisible God, and He will exalt us." Yes, Paul is encouraging us to be humble. But where did '...that does not belong to us' come from? Paul is stating that Christ Jesus WAS in very nature God, and equal with God, but He did not consider His status 'anything to be grasped', but humbled Himself and came to earth to suffer and die as a man. The Almighty Himself suffered and died for us.. I consider my sins and the sins of all humanity worse than what could be recompensed by the offering of any animal or an ordinary (even sinless) human person's life to God. Only He Himself could save the world by bearing the punishment and letting His own Self become what He hated the most in the world: sin (2Cor 5:21). "Friendship with the world is enmity with God, yet many popular "Christian" ministers consult with world rulers... Find the people that "are no part of the world" and its divisive political wars, and you will find those 'sanctified (set apart for sacred service) by the truth.' That is, you will find the truth and it will set you free from the slavitude of false religion." It is a truly a great pain to see the name "Christian" being abused so many times - but I suggest that we do not judge the belief itself by those who claim to hold it yet do not live by it. I could also mention a few embarrassing facts about Jehovah's Witnesses but I will resist the temptation to do so; I do not condemn you for the faults of others whom you share your faith with. Just a comment: 'sanctified by the truth' does not seem to be the same as "set apart for sacred service" to me. But that is again, my personal opinion. I am interested to know what you think about these issues. I honestly wish you were as free in your faith as I am in mine... I'll pray for you tonight. Yours in Christ, Zsuzsi |
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23 | Revealing error is persecution? :-) | Matt 11:11 | Zsuzsi | 123290 | ||
Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the forum; I am glad to see another person so devoted to the Truth of the Lord! Originally I started this discussion considering whom Jesus was referring to in Matthew 11:11/Luke 7:28 by "the least in the kingdom of God", but it seems to be ending up in a debate with Jehovah's Witnesses about the nature of God and the Kingdom in general. By his questions, Tim was trying to prove that Jesus is actually fully God. I pray that this forum will be a blessing to you. Your sister in Christ, Zsuzsi |
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24 | "Least in the kingdom of God"? | Matt 11:11 | Zsuzsi | 123292 | ||
"...he cannot be God, duh"..?? "Postings must be Biblically based and not opposing to the authority of the Bible, Christianity, or the deity of Jesus Christ. Whenever possible, postings should include supporting Bible references." Ralph if as a result of this you justly happen to get kicked from this forum, feel free to contact me at dsokus@hotmail.com - I'd be happy to discuss this issue with you. You must have respect for the rules of SBF - saying such things is simply not appropriate here. Yours, Zsuzsi |
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25 | God and gods? | Matt 11:11 | Zsuzsi | 123319 | ||
Hi following him, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." 1Corinthians 13 (NASB) I agree - we can preach the Love and Care and Light of our Lord in the most convincing way ever possible, but without ACTUALLY loving and and caring and being the light for "the others", they will rightly think they are the victorious, innoncently persecuted and rejoicing servants of God. But on the other hand, our service to them must not become a 'stumbling block' to people whom we are supposed to shepherd; SBF is a public forum, where new or even "becoming" Christians also come to learn - about the Trinitarian, Christian theology and faith, not the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses about two or more 'gods' and various heavens etc. There is a great danger that new Christians misunderstand the real Christian doctrine if even on a forum like this they get a mixture of different, including non-Christian, ideologies. We are responsible for the 'little ones', and the Lord Himself entrusted us with this task - this is why we do sometimes have to 'pull the plug'. I gave Ralph my e-mail, he can talk to me about this if he wants to. He certainly must be treated and respected as a human person possessing dingity, having been created in the image of God - just as we are. But, just as we do, he also must keep himself to the original purposes and rules of this forum included in the ToU, which he agreed to before joining. There is a careful balance between loving people who fiercely argue with us about the Truth and loving people who depend on our more mature Christian guidance. It is really nice to have people who think like you on this forum. May God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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26 | Enemies? | Luke 19:27 | Zsuzsi | 120806 | ||
Hi Mommapbs, Thanks for your answer and for this excellent study topic. I am sorry about the delayed response but I have actually been researching and praying about what you said... And as a matter of fact, your interpretation does make sense in a way, it can stand language-wise and it is supported by a few other Bible passages. Here is what I found: 'enemy' - 'echthros' (Gr), means hated, used in many cases for 'bitter enemy of divine government'. 'slave' - 'doulos' (Gr), means slave or bondman, one who gives himself up to another's will. In a metaphorical sense, Jesus uses this word in a few places for the people who devote themselves to His service. Also see, for example: Mt 13:44: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Together with: Lk 17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Jn:15:5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. etc... Nevertheless if we take your interpretation, we still have the question about the difference between 'enemy' and 'unworthy slave'; neither have I found any Biblical reference that Jesus was referring to Himself, and your interpretation, to me, seems somewhat out of context (Luke 19 - Zacchaeus, the colt and triumphant entry to Jerusalem, and Jesus clearing the temple). Zacchaeus: Jesus came to save those who are lost; The colt and enrty in Jerusalem: "..if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out." Lk 19:40 Clearing the temple in Jerusalem: God's house should not be made a den of thieves. Also, Luke 19:11 says, "And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear." To me that suggests that Jesus was trying to tell the people that He would not save the world in the way they imagined... Besides, I do not believe in 'Grace-Only' salvation, I am reminded of Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Lk:6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Mt:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. etc) Personally I believe maintaining an intimate relationship with Jesus is the most important, which necessarily involves a strong determination to keep His commandments. The rest is His Grace. I think He definitely did not die to 'entitle' anyone to sin... He died so that we would be 'in' but not 'of' the world. (John 17). Additionally, as I said above, He does use 'servant' for the people who serve Him, which makes me think my interpretation can also stand. So to me the idea that Jesus was urging us to at least attempt to use the talents He has given, however little, seems more straightforward. But of course that is just my personal opinion. I know the feeling when the Holy Spirit touches you through God's Word, and if this is what you believe happened to you now, I am really no-one to convince you of my own opinion. A single word of the Holy Spirit outclasses all our tries in grammatico-historical and whatever approaches. Your interpretation is well within the borders of what I call 'sensible Christian faith' and I have not found anything that would belie its truth. Jesus is indeed a treasure in our heart, to me He is actually much more than that. After some hours of prayer I believe it is not His will that I should try to change your opinion about this, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:6 This is all I can say to you: if you are unsure, pray about it once more, and see what the Lord answers. For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. Prov 2:6. In case you would like to discuss it a bit more, I am willing to pray and explore this more in depth with you. Thank you again and God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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27 | Enemies? | Luke 19:27 | Zsuzsi | 120834 | ||
:) That's actually what we are commanded to do: "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Prov 1:5-7 I am convinced that it hurts the Lord deeply when people bigotedly hold on to their own ideas, especially about His Word, without consulting Him; they wouldn't turn to Him even when they find themselves in those fierce, never-ending debates... No wonder God's blessing is not there! But if it hurts me so much, how much can it hurt Him?? Aren't we are supposed to seek the TRUTH, rather than ways to prove ourselves right? Prov 22:4: "By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life." So I am just doing what I was commanded to do. I am an unprofitable servant: I have done that which was my duty to do. (Luke 17:10) But thanks anyway for the blessing, may God bless your day too. Zsuzsi |
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28 | Is the quote presumptuous? | John 6:44 | Zsuzsi | 123532 | ||
Hi Knucklehead, Satan does bother with everyone, saved or unsaved, he even bothered with Jesus so why would we be different? I cannot tell you why he does it apart from that he hates God and all things that are from Him, but speaking from personal experience I can tell that he does tempt Christians as well. Unfortunately we can't tell him where he "should" move on to... :-) In my opinion, salvation depends solely on whether one is reborn in the Spirit or not (John 3:1-21) - and in rebirth, I believe, our whole inner nature changes from 'sinful' to 'righteous'. By being reborn, we get the same Spirit whom Jesus Himself had (Galatians 4:6), and as He did, in our inner self we delight in doing His will (eg. Romans 7:22), and we call Him and know Him as 'our Father'. Even Jesus is not ashamed of calling us His brothers/sisters (Hebrews 2:12). If we live by this Spirit, we will be "in" but not "of" the world - this is what Jesus prayed for in John 17. Yet our mortal flesh is unredeemed while we are on earth (c.v. Romans 8:23), and it 'wars' against the Spirit of God in us (Romans 7:23). This is where Satan can attack; we must live by the Spirit in us and not obey the lusts of our flesh (Galatians 5:16). If we sin, that is because we have not obeyed the Spirit of God living in us. But that does not stop us from being reborn - it simply means we have temporarily acted against our own reborn selves, which is the same as acting against God, hence the guilt and consequences etc.. (Read Romans 7, esp v 9-25). We also know that God has defeated Satan and will strenghten and support us to do good (2Peter 2:9, Romans 8:11, etc), and we can count on the sympathy of Jesus when we are tempted because He knows what it feels like (Hebrews 4:15). Therefore Satan has no power over us - unless we allow him to have some. So we are actually told to rejoice in temptations (James 1:2) because we can be sure of victory. Unless we ourselves choose otherwise, of course. And if we do, we have still gained the knowledge of how dependant we actually are on God. If we sin, God is gracious and forgives (1John 1:9). So sinning does not take our birthright: we are still His children, and He still loves us. I usually say to people struggling with guilt that God foresaw all the sins we would commit before He chose to save us; so if He loved us yesterday, He loves us today too, no matter what we have done or will do tomorrow. This is why we can feel safe in our position before Christ. Maybe I am misinterpreting things, but it seems to me that the Scriptures are not saying we are to try to be good because we are afraid of what would happen if we weren't, or because we want any rewards, not even because of our appreciation of the sacrifice Jesus made for us; but because we are One with Him and simply can't do otherwise (1John 3:9). We are not our own any more: we are God's (1Cor 6:19). This is a wondrous thing: we can try to live 'good' lives even before we are reborn, that is what many people claim to do today - but that again is something like the young man who came to Jesus, saying he's been doing everything God commanded all his life but obviously he was still missing something: although he was prepared to obey God as a remote servant, he was not prepared to be reborn and completely owned by Him as a child (Mark 10:17-21). I believe it is the initmate oneness with Him, the sweet Father-child relationship between Him and us that makes us holy, not our own attempts to act righteously. There is only one sin that will not be forgiven: the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (eg. Mark 3:29), which I believe is "making Him out to be a liar" by claiming we walk in His light while we actually consciously walk in darkness (1John 1:10). That is a sin we can never repent of, since we deny repentance itself - neither will God forgive. Neither the generosity of the Father nor the sacrifice of Jesus "entitles" anyone to sin. Abusing the freedom which is our birthright is what Paul repeatedly refers to as "God forbid!". Once we are reborn, faith or works as a basis for our salvation loses meaning. Salvation is what God gives to us, not what we give to ourselves. All God wants is a willingness to completely surrender our lives to Him and enjoy the "fullness in Christ" already on earth and in the life to come. Read also Ephesians 3:14-21. This is what I believe... Hope it made sense... :-) God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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29 | Can someone help me get to God? | Rom 10:9 | Zsuzsi | 122592 | ||
Hmm... Yes, our Good Shepherd would like the big sheep to protect the little sheep from bad food that will make them sick - but He would also have us give them something good which they can actually feed on! Mark 6:34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things. Sincerely yours in Christ, Zsuzsi |
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30 | Can someone help me get to God? | Rom 10:9 | Zsuzsi | 122650 | ||
Hi Edb, Being willing to become a Bible scholar and/or a theologian, I might have a special viewpoint, but I believe an honest heart does recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit! If we search the Bible just to find some passages that prove our ideologies, we will probably end up with getting lies and deception out of it - but then it is our deliberate choice... But if we prayerfully and without prejudice (for this reason, personally I don't even read the commentaries before I study a passage myself) read the Bible, the Holy Spirit will lead us to His Truth and teach us all things (Jn 14:26)! Don't we pray, 'deliver us from evil' (Mt 6:13)? We know that God listens to all our prayers (Jn 14:13-14) - so if our sincere intention is to find the Truth, not to bigotedly hold on to our beliefs, we can fully trust in God's power to protect us from lies and deception from the adversary! Luke 11:13: "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?" The truth that the Holy Spirit reveals to us is never in contradiction with the Scriptures, and ripping single verses from their context or holding on to beliefs which are clearly proven wrong is clearly not 'being led by the Holy Spirit'... "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you -- unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth." 2Cor 13:5-8. We listen to preachers for the purpose of testing our faith. We are to pray and open our minds: if we know the Truth, nobody can convince us of anything else, for God Himself will protect us, if we ask Him to do so. But if we do not know the Truth, we must be prepared to change our mind... This is what teachers and preachers are for: we judge their teachings, and pray that God will show us what we are to accept and what we should reject. Whether we are lay people or theologians, we are not to suffer fools gladly... (2Cor 11:19) Blessings, Zsuzsi |
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31 | Can someone help me get to God? | Rom 10:9 | Zsuzsi | 122706 | ||
EdB, What you said is unfortunately true, and it is very shameful... I believe this behavior of people orginates from plain pride: this is the tragedy of humanity, wanting to know, and thinking we know, but not realizing that we are limited in our knowledge and therefore do err. We ate from the tree of knowledge, and see where we are heading. We acknowledge, with words, that only God knows everything; but somehow it seems to be beneath our dignity to accept that we ourselves might sometimes be wrong. Bigotry is one of our weakest points; we all are tempted and we do fall. To make it worse, we even draw on the 'Holy Spirit' as an excuse. :-( As for the denominations, you are so right... Jesus made one Church, and I believe He never intended it to end up in different groups getting into bitter debates with one another. (John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.") He especially did not intend it to become any financial institution or political organization (Mark 12:17: "Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him."). It was meant to keep His sheep in unity and bound to Him - so they would stand on the Rock and not be shaken when the storm comes. I am convinced that the painful divisions within His Body hurt Him the most. I actually think we should thank Him, daily, on our knees, that He is patient enough to hold us together even this much, when we have constantly tried to scatter throughout the centuries. Sadly the problem is rooted too deeply in us... I mean, just look around: we, being 'good Christians', even start selling sightseeing books and postcards in cathedrals and churches - I am sure Jesus would whip all that out just as He did in Jerusalem. And after all that, WE want to work miracles, speak in tongues and heal the sick?!? We'd be better off begging for a miracle of Grace that this greed would disappear from our hearts... The true Church of Christ is fortunately not going to be destroyed by any powers of hell, for it was His will that it should stand (Mt 16:18); but it certainly does not consist of the people who bigotedly hold on to 'MY faith is right', but rather of those, of whatever denomination, who are in but not of the world - the reborn 'little flock', who are able to place love before pride on their priority-list. Maybe I am too naive. I probably am. But that is what the Scriptures seem to tell me anyway. 1 Corinthians 1:10: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." Zsuzsi |
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32 | Can someone help me get to God? | Rom 10:9 | Zsuzsi | 122707 | ||
Yes. :-) Did I say anything different? Grace to you too, Zsuzsi |
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33 | Can someone help me get to God? | Rom 10:9 | Zsuzsi | 122750 | ||
Earnest, If earthly wealth is really "a measure of one's inner being", then I am very blessed to be so poor in spirit too (Mt 5:3)! ...But... may I ask, where exactly did you get "vitally important to man and God" from? Blessings, Zsuzsi |
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34 | Biblical - women preachers/teachers??? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123548 | ||
Of course, Steve. But no Scripture should be taken out of biblical and historical context and so be used for teaching, reproof, correction or training in righteousness. (2Tim 2:14) If we read 1Tim 2 from the beginning, we see that Paul is calling EVERYONE to a modest and quiet life, not only the women... Women are LIKEWISE (1Tim 2:9) to be quiet and receive instruction from the men of the congregation who are not deceived by Satan as Eve was in the garden of Eden. Women were quicker to fall when it came to accepting false teachings. (2Tim 3:6) 1Tim 1 tells about existing misleadings in doctrine and living. In his epistles, Paul was trying to sort out this chaotic state of the early churches and he needed to clarify whom people should listen to and whose teachings they were to reject. Also see, for example, that in Rev 2:20 Jesus convicts the church of Thyatira of allowing the woman Jezebel to lead His people into sexual immorality and eating food sacrificed to idols. The Lord is not saying the problem is that she is a woman - the problem is with her teaching. I think we should also look at the historical context in which these epistles were written: in the ancient societies, women by tradition remained at home as housewives, most often uneducated, while their husbands were responsible for supporting the family financially. By now the status of women has increased to the extent that men in many places are equally responsible for the household tasks and women also have professional jobs. It comes without saying that no woman should teach God's Word without first learning about it but I think it would be just wrong to apply rules which were mentioned in reference to the traditions of the ancient cultures and not ours. It is much more important to look at the intentions of God and the writer of the actual passages and apply the rules appropriately in our societies. There are several passages in the Bible which are, even though truly God's inspired Word (I agree- everything in the Bible is what He wants us to know), impossible to keep word-by-word today. They wonderfully prove the Father's meticulous care to teach us how to live a healthy and peaceful life - He designed us, He knows the best what is good for us. But we know He is a God of the living, not the dead. See for example Leviticus 15, where we are instructed to wash ourselves completely when we have even touched a chair or bed which a menstruating woman has touched, and till evening we are to be considered "unclean". Can we keep that today? No. We don't even know when a woman has her period. But in contrast, God told Paul not to consider "unclean" what He has made "clean". (Acts 10:15, 11:9.) God should be allowed to choose women into His service if He wishes so... God does not want us to live under the law but to be free in Christ to serve Him according to His will (Galatians 5:18). Similarly, in contrast to the seemingly anti-feminist 2Tim 2 and 1Cor 14, we are also taught that it does not make a difference in Christ whether we are women or men (Galatians 3:28). In fact, if we take all of Paul's teachings literally, we should think women are to pray and prophesy with their heads covered, and assume that it is shame for a woman to have short hair or her long hair uncovered at all. (1Cor 11:13-15, in the context of 1Cor 11:2-16) But obviously in our modern culture it is not disgraceful at all any more... And God did actually leave marks in the Bible that tell us that He does choose women into His service: female servants of God, including prophetesses and teachers, are mentioned several times (eg. Deborah, Hannah, Esther, Anna, Priscilla, the 4 daughters of Philip etc) and Jesus also chose women into His service just as well as men (eg. the Samaritanian woman who spread His coming, Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha the sisters of Lazarus, His mother was also with the apostles when the Holy Spirit ascended on them, etc). Looking at the biblical and social setting of 1Tim 2:4, I, genuinely and with the intention of changing my mind if it is proven that I am wrong, believe that Paul instructs women against two things in both 1Tim 2 and 1Cor 14: 1) They should not teach false doctrines (learn in humbleness and submission instead of teaching something they themselves do not know) 2) They should not engage in gossip in church (keep quiet in church, ask their husbands if there is something they are interested in etc) "But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner" 1Cor 14:40 But being a (very) young woman myself, and feeling called to God's service, if what I have written offends you in any way, please forgive me and I promise not to provoke you with this any further. I just pray that God shows me if I am wrong before I do anything that would displease Him. God bless you, your little sister in Christ, Zsuzsi |
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35 | Biblical - women preachers/teachers??? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123607 | ||
Hi Angel, Thanks for your reply, especially that you took the time to write it even though you were falling asleep... Well I must say I disagree with many of your points. For example: yes, God did command that people must not kill - He said it as a very general statement, not specifying whom He was referring to. Yet it was He Himself who commanded certain people to be killed (I can also give you Bible references, there are many examples): lawbreakers, worshippers of idols, people of other nations etc. His people had to choose to obey His specific command in each case, rather than the generalized one... If He was allowed to so "change His Mind", I do not see why He should not be allowed to call women to His service when times have obviously changed. Secondly, I do not think "ministry service" (being a pastor, passing one's knowledge on to those in need, whether men or women) is equivalent to "usurping" authority over people in any way. I would personally consider it "service" to the Lord and to humanity, which requires serious dedication, persesrverance and humbleness. It is not about what titles we stick on the door of one's office - it's about how people get closer to Christ by us being there for them. Thirdly, if we are to take this passage separately from its context and accept it as you are suggesting we should, we see that Paul is talking about ALL forms of teaching or having authority - 1Tim 2 has actually nothing to do with church organization at all... That would mean that my mother, for example, who is a biophysicist and has male PhD students every year is sinning by simply teaching or guiding them... Priscilla herself would also have sinned by teaching Apollos - Paul never condemned her. Not to mention, of course, I would have been sinning by "teaching" on this forum and everywhere else, I would actually be sinning even right now by writing this to you! Taking this verse by itself would simply tell us that the true Christian lifestyle is against gender-equality, we are to be anti-feminists and discriminating. Now I do not believe it was even close to either God's or Paul's intentions to create that picture of the ideal Christian community... Approving of women taking the position to which they are entitled in the Body of Christ is, in my opinion, not even similar to approving of homosexuality or abortion. About the relationship between the church and state I am again on a different opinion but I will not elaborate that now in detail. But since this question is so personal to me, I must accept that you can probably remain much more objective about it than I can... Indeed it is hard to ignore the quite strong emotions which statements that belie my own calling raise in me. I hope you can understand that. But of course it is not about how I feel - it is about discerning, without false justifications, what vocation God has intended me to have. Honestly I would rather be a toilet-cleaner all my life than grieve the Lord by becoming something I am not authorized to become... So I think I will now go on a few days' quiet retreat to seek the will of God before I start debating with you or anyone (especially older men!) about this issue. I would really appreciate prayers... May God bless you, and thank you again for your concern for my spiritual development, Zsuzsi |
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36 | Zsuzsi, which Scripture don't YOU keep? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123609 | ||
Dear Godsservant, No problems. :-) Other people have disagreed with me in much more drastic ways but that does not mean they are being mean or anything. I thank you for sharing your opinion with me - you are more than welcome to disagree, as many times as you wish. :-) God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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37 | Biblical - women preachers/teachers??? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123611 | ||
Hi Emmaus, Thank you! Wow, this is long...! Seeing it is Roman Catholic, written by the Pope (whom I not only have heard of but have much respect for btw), I suspect I know what the conclusion is going to be; but I promise to read it through thoroughly. :-) God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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38 | Biblical - women preachers/teachers??? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123615 | ||
Hi Followinghim, Thank you for your words of encouragement. :-) I am glad I am not alone with my opinion. To me the Scriptures do not seem to be speaking against the possibility of women taking up pastoral jobs either. Nevertheless, as I notice, many people have very different views - and since this question is personally important to me in the period of discernment I am in anyway, I think I will directly turn to the Lord with this issue before my emotions make me too biased to accept if by any chance I am actually wrong. God bless you, Zsuzsi |
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39 | Biblical - women preachers/teachers??? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Zsuzsi | 123707 | ||
Dear Steve, Upon reviewing the ToU I do see now that I am underage. :-( When I registered I must have carelessly skipped over that point, thank you for drawing my attention to it. Of course I shall not violate the laws any further... I hope that in my replies I have not offended anyone by my immaturity. I'll come back two years later... Unless I -fairly- get deprived of my right to post because of "abuse" forever. Yet I think I will get in contact with you about this issue in a few days - privately. May God bless you, Zsuzsi PS: I have already contacted some of the people you mentioned by e-mail... |
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40 | Ordaining Others... | 2 Tim 2:15 | Zsuzsi | 121497 | ||
You are very welcome. I am glad to know that God spoke the same thing to your heart and mine. :) "And He was saying to them, 'The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.'" Luke 10:2 I will pray for them tonight.. And for you too. God bless, Zsuzsi |
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