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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
161 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95965 | ||
Part 2 'Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? 'If the Rapture "has already taken place", then the resurrection has already taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. In this passage, he links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. In other words, when the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs. 'Those who insist that the events of Matthew 24 are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was the generation concurrent with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago, must of necessity show that the resurrection has also taken place. The only way that is possible is to spiritualize the text by saying that the resurrection was a spiritual one and not a physical one. 'Moderate (or partial) preterist, R.C. Sproul recognizes this when he says, To maintain that these events [the Olivet teaching] were indeed fulfilled in the first century, one must interpret the relevant passages in a way that makes early fulfillment possible. The most severe obstacle [to that] is the absence of any historical record that the rapture of the living and the resurrection of the dead occurred. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 161) 'There are two serious problems with understanding the resurrection as a "spiritual" event. R.C. Sproul says, The first difficulty is that it [Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15] involves propositions and assertions that can be neither verified nor falsified empirically. ... if one announces or predicts things that will take place in the arena of real history involving physical reality, then empirical verification becomes relevant and crucial...It is unfortunate that the apostle failed to alert the Corinthians-and us, by extension-that he was speaking of a secret, hidden, spiritual resurrection. His language certainly suggests something else, particularly as Paul so clearly conjoins the resurrection of our bodies with the resurrection of Christ's body. The resurrected Christ is the firstfruits of all who will be raised. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 162) 'And what was the resurrected body of Jesus like? First, the tomb was empty. In other words, there was a physical body in it but on the day of His resurrection, it became empty. A body had departed from it. Second, he had a glorified body. It was different from His previous mortal body, but it was the same body. Third, Jesus was visible to the disciples until the time He ascended and was touched by them and ate with them. Christ's resurrected body was a physical body, not a spiritualized one. 'A theological problem with a spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is likewise addressed by R.C. Sproul - If a spiritual body cannot be seen, touched, or handled, is it a body at all? It is one thing to say that our resurrected bodies will be spiritiual bodies, but quite another to imply that our resurrected bodies will be merely spirits. The Bible speaks of spiritual bodies. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 164) 'A common problem among interpreters of the Bible is that of "shifting gears". If a person approaches his interpretation of the Bible with, for example, a face value hermeneutic, then it is critical that he remain consistent with his approach. However, many often "flip flop" in their interpretation approach to maintain a preconceived understanding of a text. An example of this is the above. Preterists interpret "this generation" in the simple sense as meaning the generation concurrent with Christ and then suddenly "shift gears" and apply a figurative approach to arrive at a spiritualized understanding of the Rapture and the resurrection. That is an inconsistent hermeneutic and leads to error. 'When spiritualization is introduced into one's interpretation, Pandora's box is opened and various meanings can be understood. The only way the integrity of the Author/author's wording and meaning can be preserved is by taking Scripture at face value. Taking Scripture at face value means that the student of Scripture recognizes the difference between what can be called the "simple sense" of a passage and what is understood as a literal understanding. A literal understanding includes the examination of the historical/cultural and lexical/syntactical considerations. It also recognizes symbols and figures of speech and realizes there is a referent for them. For further information on hermeneutical principles, see the "links" section of this website for an explanation. (Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? By Rev. Bill Lee-Warner) (http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0003.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Radioman2 |
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162 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95963 | ||
Part 1 Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? 'By Rev. Bill Lee-Warner '"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Matthew 24:34 'The above passage is found in what is referred to as the Olivet Discourse of Jesus given a few days before Christ's crucifixion. The context for Matthew 24:34 is Jesus' response to the questions of the disciples regarding His return and the end of the age. There are those in the church of Jesus Christ who understand "this generation" to refer to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking the day He gave the discourse. 'The apostle Paul recognized this error and warned Timothy of it when he wrote, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and...spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some." (2 Tim. 2:16-18) 'Today, there is a resurgence of this teaching known as preterism. The term preterism comes from the Latin word praeterism and means "past" or already gone by. The basic teaching of preterism is that the great tribulation has already occured in the distant past, principally at AD 70. Those who hold to this teaching are known specifically as full preterists. There is another subgroup of preterists known as partial or moderate preterists. This latter group sees parts of the Olivet Discourse, or Jesus' teaching on end times, as partially fulfilled in AD 70 but other parts as yet to be fulfilled at the second parousia of Christ. Several efforts have been made to establish preterism as historically sound and biblical but the clear warning of Paul reminds us that it is an heretical and false teaching. The following reasons are offered to the student of Scripture and prophecy for consideration. Be a Berean (Acts 17:11) and examine the Word to "see if these things are so."' ____________________ To read the rest of this article and find out what "the following reasons" are, go to (www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0003.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Radioman2 |
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163 | Exodus 33:11 vs. Ex. 33:1-22? | Ex 33:23 | Radioman2 | 95951 | ||
Hank: You write: "...two busy writing on the fourem to think ..... --hank." Too busy writing on the forum to think! Don't look now, but you may have written the forum's epitaph. (Or is it epithet?) :-) --Radioman2 |
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164 | Do you believe once save, always saved. | Luke 23:43 | Radioman2 | 95909 | ||
Whether Christians listen to Statements of Faith or whether the Bible is our source of Truth and Faith is NOT the point of my question. I asked where "Once saved, always saved" is found in a denomination's statement of faith for a reason, i.e., because I very much doubt that any statement of faith says that. Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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165 | A New Reformation? | Revelation | Radioman2 | 95845 | ||
Left Behind ____________________ 'Perhaps the eschatology of this film can best be summarized by a line from within the film itself, spoken by Buck Williams, played by Kirk Cameron: "The scriptures are so vague, they could mean anything". 'One wonders if the whole film was built around this perspective.' ____________________ Justme, Hank, DarcyA, New Creature: For an introduction to why the Left Behind books and film are dangerously off in their theology, go to the following website: (www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0002.html) I quote from a review of the film: ____________________ 'LEFT BEHIND: 'A Review of the Latest End Times Film by Dirk Eichhorst 'It is troubling that Hollywood often produces films that are blatantly anti-Christian. Even more troubling is when Christians with good intentions produce a film that tries to tell the truth, but is dangerously off in its theology. LEFT BEHIND is the latest film that tackles eschatology (the study of end times), and claims to be biblical. Yet the film misinterprets and misapplies significant portions of prophetic Scripture. Can this kind of misleading teaching in a film potentially do more harm than a blatantly anti-Christian message? (...) '...we have already seen that the timing and ordering of the eschatological events strays from the biblical outline. The film's writers determined the sequence of events. The order of events, outlined by Christ in Matthew 24 and echoed in Revelation, are ignored. It is these inaccuracies of the film's eschatology that makes it so questionable. Hollywood films are obviously stories, most of them fictional, and yes, they can degrade, deceive, and challenge biblical thinking. But LEFT BEHIND, being touted as Truth, is in the position to deceive many into thinking this is what the Word of God says concerning end time events, that this is how it will happen, and that all Christians believe it to be this way. The film is a tragic error that will cost far more than its budget in false teaching. 'Perhaps the eschatology of this film can best be summarized by a line from within the film itself, spoken by Buck Williams, played by Kirk Cameron: "The scriptures are so vague, they could mean anything". 'One wonders if the whole film was built around this perspective' (www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0002.html). ____________________ Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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166 | True believer | Rom 10:9 | Radioman2 | 95784 | ||
Who gets spiritually weird? EdB: Speaking of the word of fake movement, have you ever wondered: What kind of people get spiritually weird? I think you will enjoy the following. Grace to you, Radioman2 ___________________ 'It seems like every couple of years a new fad comes down the pike promising a, deeper richer, fuller, Christian life. If you've been around for a while you know what I mean. In my twenty years as a Christian we've had Power in praise; the "second blessing" as key to the powerful Christian life; . . . heavy-handed submission to church leadership; binding, loosing and rebuking of demons, NAME IT AND CLAIM IT, the School of the Prophets, hearing the voice of God, power evangelism. These are all fads, ladies and gentlemen, evangelical joy-toys. They each may emphasize something that has biblical merit, but they do so in an unbalanced way, and each fails utterly as a panacea, as the one particular and principle thing that makes your Christian life "work." 'It is uniquely American to want an easy way out, especially a way out that is not painful and requires no work. That American value has crept into our American Christianity. So we have these seminars to get it all taken care of in a weekend. Want mental health? Get hands laid on you and you'll have mental health overnight. Want spirituality? Have a vision, get the baptism, . . . Want your problems to disappear? Simply praise the Lord. Want to be rid of temptation and sin? Have the demon cast out. Want to be done with the aggravation of decision making? Let God speak to you. 'Instead of being devoted to developing spiritual maturity and attaining Scriptural knowledge, we want the quick fix. Instead of developing mastery, we want magic. Instead of learning our lessons, we want the master sitting next to us during the tests of life whispering His answers into our ears. We anticipate an A in the exam of life not because we know the material, not because we've mastered the content and it's become a part of us, but because we've cheated. 'You will notice, by the way, that these extreme things do not stay around long, and that the effects of these fads fade over time. That's why the church as a whole has to move on to its next fast-fix.' ____________________ "How to Keep from Getting Spiritually Weird" by Gregory Koukl. This is a transcript of a commentary from the radio show "Stand to Reason," with Gregory Koukl. (Emphasis added.) For more information, contact Stand to Reason at (www.str.org) |
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167 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95727 | ||
Darcy: I agree with you when you write: "I believe there is more than one level to a verse For example the sacrifies were a type of Christ. But get the first level right before you even attempt to get to the second level." That's exactly where many people err. They are so eager to jump on the application of a verse that they skip over the first two steps, which are to determine: 1. What does this passage of Scripture SAY? 2. What does it MEAN? What did it mean to the people living at the time when this was first written? What does it mean according to the words used and according to the context? If one doesn't take these steps in order, then one will likely err in the third part, which is application, i.e., what is the practical application for us today? Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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168 | A New Reformation? | Revelation | Radioman2 | 95724 | ||
Hank: While many people today talk on and on about a great endtime revival, what we DO KNOW is "...that Day will not come unless the falling away (apostasy) comes first,..." (2 Thess. 2:3). (True "Bereans" don't exactly grow on trees in bunches like bananas, do they?) --Radioman2 |
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169 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95718 | ||
Darcy! Good point! And once someone says that the historical, grammatical meaning of the Scripture is not the true meaning, then he makes it impossible to ascertain what the meaning is. Because if we cannot understand the text by the normal use of English words and grammar, how would we ever know what it meant? Which is not to say that the Bible doesn't use figurative language. It does. And it's usually plain and clear in the context when figurative language is being used. It's like the old saying regarding Bible interpretation: When the plain (or literal) sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it be nonsense. Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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170 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95715 | ||
Joe: Not to disagree with you, but just to shed further light on this subject, I submit the following for the consideration of all: 'A common problem among interpreters of the Bible is that of "shifting gears". If a person approaches his interpretation of the Bible with, for example, a face value hermeneutic, then it is critical that he remain consistent with his approach. However, many often "flip flop" in their interpretation approach to maintain a preconceived understanding of a text. An example of this is the above. Preterists interpret "this generation" in the simple sense as meaning the generation concurrent with Christ and then suddenly "shift gears" and apply a figurative approach to arrive at a spiritualized understanding of the Rapture and the resurrection. That is an inconsistent hermeneutic and leads to error.' ____________________ (Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? By Rev. Bill Lee-Warner) (http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0003.html) Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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171 | True believer | Rom 10:9 | Radioman2 | 95701 | ||
Ed: Excellent post. You said what I wanted to say. Only you put it better than I ever could have. Grace and peace to you, --Radioman2 |
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172 | cronology of names in bible | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95675 | ||
EdB: I agree. Gbennett has made a fool of himself by his rude and obnoxious harrassment of the forum. His attitude and behavior in flooding the forum with posts and deliberately violating the forum's intentions by repeatedly re-registering and posting under new user names is offensive to all decent readers of this forum. He has discredited and disgraced not only himself, but Mormons everywhere. Yes, Ed, he did us a favor by presenting the true picture of Mormonism -- deceit, trickery and manipulation. By any definition, the Mormon church (LDS) is a cult. Radioman2 |
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173 | Exodus 33:11 vs. Ex. 33:1-22? | Ex 33:23 | Radioman2 | 95412 | ||
Hank: Beginning sentences with a capital letter and ending them with a period, question mark or exclamation point would add some class to this old forum. Also, I assume only 1 percent of the Forum population has access to an online dictionary or spell checker. (I have no one in particular in mind. I'm not keeping track of grammatical offenses in my teacher's grade book. :-) I am speaking of the forum in general.) Radioman2 :-) |
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174 | GOD CAST SATAN FROM HEAVEN? | Rev 12:4 | Radioman2 | 95321 | ||
Hank: Your note reminded me of the following quotation. "Science does not contradict the Bible. Oh, hundreds of times, the Bible has contradicted science – and science has in due turn been found to be wrong.” (Truths That Transform - D. James Kennedy) --Radioman2 |
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175 | Do you believe once save, always saved. | Luke 23:43 | Radioman2 | 95261 | ||
Oh, I'm chimin'. The R-man :-) |
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176 | 18 Book of Revelation | Revelation | Radioman2 | 95260 | ||
OK, humpy! Thanks for your reply. Grace to you, Radioman2 :-) |
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177 | 18 Book of Revelation | Revelation | Radioman2 | 95214 | ||
'If you think you're on safe theological ground because of a pet verse, better look twice. Simple prooftexting has its perils.' --(Gregory Koukl, Stand to Reason) |
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178 | Do you believe once save, always saved. | Luke 23:43 | Radioman2 | 95206 | ||
You write: 'I also believe that "The just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Hebrews 10:38).' Don't stop there. Go on and read the next verse. NASB Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Now read the two verses together. AMPLIFIED Hebrews 10:38 But the just shall live by faith [My righteous servant shall live by his conviction respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it]; and if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him. [Hab. 2:3, 4.] AMPLIFIED Hebrews 10:39 But our way is not that of those who draw back to eternal misery (perdition) and are utterly destroyed, but we are of those who believe [who cleave to and trust in and rely on God through Jesus Christ, the Messiah] and by faith preserve the soul. Moreover, the subject of 2 Peter chapter 2 is false prophets and false teachers -- not believers, according to 2 Peter 2:1. NASB 2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. --Radioman2 |
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179 | where is judgement | Revelation | Radioman2 | 95203 | ||
Humpy: You may wish to read and study what the Bible says about the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the difference between the two -- they are not one and the same judgment. Grace to you, Radioman2 |
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180 | The Problem with WoF in a nutshell | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95179 | ||
Truthfinder: Perhaps what we need is a translation of what apostoloB wrote. You write that you have not even read a single post of the pro-WOF posts. Good idea! I, myself, make a practice of not following the ceaseless and interminable threads regarding Calvinism vs non-Calvinism. Radioman2 |
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