Results 141 - 160 of 189
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Results from: Notes Author: keliy Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
141 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214802 | ||
Hi John, Thanks for the comforting reply. (o: Nice toknow that people are listening with open hearts and minds. What often brings discomfort is when we reason to ourselves that the heavens and the stars are the Lord's, and that this, our earthly home, is just a miniscule part of the creation. This mental error prompts thoughts that He holds little interest in this third rock from the sun, as He dwells in His royal palace high above. So He beneficially reveals His heart in His Word to us, as He explains that the earth is His, this tiny sphere; and even though He has prepared His glorious throne in the heavens, His kingdom rules over all, and even the lowest worms are not free from His awareness. When God graciously gave this world to the descendants of Adam, and then of Noah, He still withholds to himself the rights to His property, and only gives us, as stewards, the right of using and enjoying the profits of that which belongs to Him. This is referred to in the Latin as, "usus et fructus" or, use and enjoyment. But it doesn't stop there, with the material property. We are also His property, body as well as soul. The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof. the world and those that dwell therein. (Psa 24:1) We are not to consider ourselves to be our own, "All souls are mine", says God (Eze 18:4), for He is the Potter that formed these vessels from clay and the Father of our spirits. Even our tongues are not our own; they are to be at his service, per the sibling-servant James. Even those that do not know Him are His. For this reason we are not to focus our desires towards the wealth of this world, the praise of others, or the delights of our senses, This is what causes the shipwrecks that you mention. It is when our desires are in conflict with our heavenly Father's desires, which is what caused our first parents to be expelled from paradise. Thank you, John, it was a pleasure to hear from you. keliy |
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142 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214805 | ||
Thanks once again John, It is always a pleasure to glorify Him through this Forum. All of humankind will someday glorify God; -either in His Divine Mercy as Savior, or in His Divine Justice as Judge. Your posts are likewise appreciated (o: keliy |
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143 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214806 | ||
Dear brother beja, I am sorry for responding to your post after you left us "all to our own thoughts" , but the 'drive-by' nature of your post left me with more questions than answers. Actually, the only references I could find (concerning tithing) when dealing with the primary question of this thread were in Hebrews, and they were historical in nature, -more of a reminder than a directive. These are my thoughts and not trying to debate this, I will leave it for now. My question has more to do with your thoughts on dispensations. As forums revolve around such discussions, please enlighten me as to your thoughts on who the tithes were being paid to. Wasn't it the Levitical priesthood? My knowledge is very grey in this area, and I intend to do more studying from the Hebrew perspective, but your views are valuable as well. Further, you mention that dispensational theology is not much more than a house of cards. You are entitled to your perspective. But what does that leave? Replacement Theology? Covenental Theology? Please accept my apology, but your post leaves so much hanging in the balance. These things have been argued for generations, I know. But I would still like to see a valid viewpoint, and your posts are well accepted. My thoughts are that 'dispensation' Is a NT word as Paul states in Eph 3:2, "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:" What say you, Pastor? many thanks, keliy |
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144 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214814 | ||
Hi John, As Dispensations go, we are said to be between the Cross of Christ and the Crown of Christ, which is referred to as the dispensation of Grace. But since the topic is about tithing, I will offer the following, hoping both topics will be addressed. There are reasons why the question of tithing to the church is constantly debated, yet never adequately resolved. It's the misunderstanding of people who try to answer the question through Scripture, but not realizing that tithing is an OT principle, and the Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament. The Church, as Christ's Body was hidden from the Old Testament prophets, and was a "Mystery" first revealed to Paul, and disclosed by him in Eph. 3:1-10. That which was dispensed to Israel was written and recorded for our ensample and admonition, (1 Cor. 10:11), but we must not apply to the Church that which does not belong to it. We see more clearly then that to misapply Scripture is to not be "Rightly Dividing the Word" and leads us into confusion and error. The purpose of God was not made known to the Patriarchs and the Prophets of the OT. Christ was the first one to give us a hint of it, when He said of Peter's inspired confession, "On this rock I will build MY CHURCH." (Matt. 16:18). Paul calls it "The Mystery, which in OT Ages was not made known unto the sons of men" (Eph. 3:3-6), and that it was "hid in God" from the "beginning of the World." (Eph. 3:9). So, you see how God unfolds His plan, or 'dispenses' knowledge of it to His people as He deems fit That the Gentiles were to be "saved" was no Mystery. (Rom 9:24-30). The "Mystery" was God's purpose to unite Jews and Gentiles into The Church, towards the formation of His Body, The Church. (1 Cor. 12:12-13). There is so much more, but I must close here for the sake of brevity. I am undecided if Dispensationalists or Covenantalists are completely right or wrong, because I find most times that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In the end, we will know as we are known, and eternity is still very young. Blessings, keliy |
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145 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214822 | ||
Hello MJH Thank you for your thoughts on my post. We all are God's children here and it really is a treat to hear of everyone's viewpoints, contrasting or not, all are welcome and appreciated. Actually if everyone agreed with me, I would actually be getting pretty scared right about now (o; That is the best thing about forums like this, we can ask, answer, teach or preach, and even vent a little -without feeling that we will be unforgiven for not being in harmony with every Christian's worldview. Since you asked however, there are different combinations of dispensations in the OT, but here is one of the popular ones: the dispensation of Innocence (Gen 1:1–3:7), prior to Adam's fall, of Conscience (Gen 3:8–8:22), Adam to Noah, of Government (Gen 9:1–11:32), Noah to Abraham, of Patriarchal Rule (Gen 12:1–Exod 19:25), Abraham to Moses, of the Mosaic Law (Exod 20:1–Acts 2:4), Moses to Christ, Grace and Peace, keliy |
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146 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214824 | ||
Thank you, WOS, Yes I agree that Grace was administered during the Old Testament. The passover being one example and sacrifices another. These instances all were foreshadows of Christ. There are counless instances of God's grace to Moses and the Israelites during their wilderness journey. How about what David did, when he entered into the house of God, and ate the shewbread. This is very simply just not the name of the particular era of dispensation of that time. God gives grace to all, the just and the unjust. For Christ also died for sins once for all and there seems to be no limit of His mercy, therefore He is to be praised. Lord Bless, keliy |
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147 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214865 | ||
Beja, Thank you for your responses which are continuing to make this into a very interesting thread. I would like to clarify my views to you, since I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are in disagreement with my post for reasons that simply do not exist. May I begin by quoting you from your post to Val: "Rather the view point which I would commend to you sees the entire of scripture as one plan, with one end (the cross), exalting one figure (christ.) " I was not trying in my post to say that there was anything more than one plan, nor do I exalt any more than Christ, however, the 'end' which you describe above, -to me it is only the beginning of the end. I have brought to this forum before my viewpoint of the entire Bible as being God's plan for the redemption of mankind. In the first chapter, we have man and God together in paradise and all is good, very good. In the last chapter of the Bible, we have man and God together in paradise for eternity. So what we have in God's plan for redemption is a Master Plan, not a series of failed plans. If I may be allowed the liberty to quote you again, "The view that the old testament was a series of failed dispensations between God and man in my opinion leaves us with a horribly malnourished view of scripture and sense of God. I would like to bring up now from Merriam Webster's the (first of three) definition of dispensation, for your consideration: 1 a: a general state or ordering of things ; specifically : a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs b: a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature Now if I could ask you to pay particular attention to the word "System" I would like to offer the example of our own digestive "System". This is nothing more than a group of individual organs that work together to produce one function. This is done not by simultaneous action, but in a sequential order. First the body dispenses saliva into the food and later dispenses enzymes to further separate the good from the bad. So, upon adopting this viewpoint, God's plan becomes a systematic arrangement of promises rather than a series of failed dispensations. Thank you for your consideration, Lord bless keliy |
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148 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214872 | ||
Dear Beja, There has been many differences in viewpoints that concern the Church and Israel among many believers. I see this Forum as a way we can either resolve differences or fortify our own beliefs. With over 4,000 Protestant denominations, There is likely no way we will come into harmony using an electronic format, So I will offer you my beliefs, question other's and respect them all just the same. I was going to write a post anyway to clarify dispensationalsism because it seemed to me that if you and I are not in agreement of what dispensationalism is, we can never understand each other's viewpoints regarding the evidence for dispensationalsism. I define it as an interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. My brand of theology is based on grammatical/historical methods of interpretation. Interpreting Grammatically means you must define words and concepts according to the rules of grammar of the language being used, including consideration of context. Interpreting Historically means simply that passages must be interpreted in the way the people would take them at the time the human author wrote them. This type of interpretation forces you to realize that God has a specific plan for Israel that is yet to be fully completed. God has another plan for the Church that is also in the process of being fulfilled. Thus, "Dispensationalism", amounts to God working in different ways at different times with different groups, although all are saved by grace through faith. So Jews in the O.T. were under the Law, while Christians in the N.T. are not; two different dispensations. To answer your question on " the means of acquiring salvation in the various dispensations", I believe that our views are alike. Scripture plainly teaches that there will be a great final judgement of believers as well as unbelievers. Christ will proclaim their eternal destiny as they stand before His judgement seat in their resurrected bodies. This can be found in Rev 20:11-15. Blessings, keliy |
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149 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214900 | ||
Beja, In addition to my post yesterday, I did not mean to cut so short the last paragraph of my post. I was on a borrowed laptop, and the time became short. A study of Salvation would be favorable since it would reveal the necessity of faith, repentance, and confession of Jesus’ deity for the remission of sin. But this topic is about tithing, and tithing is unnecessary for salvation. The subtopic that grew from this thread is that of Dispensationalism, and you had asked me about the evidence for salvation in OT Dispensations. It would be very hard for Old Testament believers to confess the deity of Jesus of course. But there are many parallels, Such as Rahab who used a cord of scarlet threads that saved her from certain death. Being no Israelite, she still confessed her belief in Jos 2:9, "And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you." The scarlet thread she used to save her family is an obvious reference to the Blood of Jesus. Numbers 21:8 is another example: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." Now I am aware that the salvation involving the fiery serpent was a physical salvation or deliverance, however Jesus teaches there are spiritual parallels. (Jn. 3: 14-17) Israel was restored as a nation in Nehemiah chapter 9, and when Jonah warned people of Nineveh of God’s wrath, they believed in God and turned from their evil way. As we look at these examples today, we can see in hindsight that Christ was being foreshadowed by the lessons that were being exemplified. This is because we have the advantage of historical record. The Israelites in the OT were being prepared for the coming of Christ, but they could not realize what the Types they were being given had signified until the Truth was made evident in the NT. God manifested Himself through laws in the OT, but in the NT, he could be recognized in the life of His Son. (If you have seen me, you have seen the Father -Jhn 14:9) The knowledge of the Life and Work of Christ is limited in many believers to His "Earthly Life." But we must not forget that Jesus was the eternal Christ. In Heb. 1:1, we read that God had spoken "at sundry times," as well as "in divers manners," and if we are to understand what He has spoken, we must distinguish between the class of people being spoken to, as the Jews, Gentiles or the Church, and we must also note the 'times' as well as the 'manners.' I am not trying to say that my understanding of Dispensationalism is complete, or even superior, but I do hope to have brought to light the definition and the exercise of Dispensations. Lord Bless, keliy |
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150 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214959 | ||
Dear Beja, Thank you for your kind response. I did not know you were on vacation when your initial post came through. I did see this thread as having the potential for brewing up some troublesome complexity, but now that I know you will be back to your office in a few days, I will wait and watch for another response from you then. I had felt my response to your request was a little fragmented and hard to follow, and I apologize for that. In my next post I will have a better trained thought pattern. I myself am grateful to this Forum and all the brothers and sisters who are helping me to grow in my convictions. I also wish to thank you personally for your teaching and your understanding. Enjoy what's left of your respite, and Lord Bless, keliy |
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151 | Porn in spouse overcome thru fasting? | Galatians | keliy | 212580 | ||
Bandaid, Sorry, but since you are questioning the effectiveness of fasting and prayer, is your faith sufficient to do so? And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.(Luk 17:6) Jesus said, in John 16:24f, ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.but He also said, Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts. (Jam 4:3) Well, I do wish I could be of more help, but it is verses that you asked for, and verses you shall get, (o; keliy |
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152 | Porn in spouse overcome thru fasting? | Galatians | keliy | 212633 | ||
Bandaid, dear sister, I can not express how sorry I am that my posts have been interpreted in such a way. It is hard for me to get my true feelings across on such an electronic format. Please believe, that my only intention is to serve, and not offend. In serving others through serving the Lord, I have realized that a true servant's reward comes only when the other person is blessed. That has always been my intention, and to read it any other way is to block any benefit that may otherwise be received I have been down some paths that are parallel to some struggles you are facing, and am familiar with mental illness. I have been arrested and jailed for situations that were due to a believer who refused to stop tampering with the prescribed dosage of her seratonin-reuptake-inhibitors ( psyche-meds) Thankfully the charges were dropped due to the Holy Spirit speaking through me during the trial. To God be the glory! I have also suffered from addictive behaviors during my decades of apostasy and rebellion. If I were to mention some habitual behaviors, there are people that would say these were more destructive than any they have ever known. I am not trying to blow my horn here, I actually am only breathing today by the grace of God and the hedge of protection that He placed over me, as well as the expertise of the EMT's who attended to me on a flight for life helicopter dispatched to a rural location before sunrise one Sunday morning as I laid alone. Yet I remained in denial and actually got worse in my behaviors. All of that to get to this: It was 15 long years after that incident while ignoring the pleadings of Christian family members that I realized I needed to look towards the resources of God to introduce any type of lasting change in my life and they have consistently proven to be sufficient. After my conversion to Jesus, and accepting Him as the Lord and Savior of my life, He has made possible my transformation by making God's divine power available to me. Here are some notes I kept, that I turn to in times of need: God's Spirit is within me (Rom 8:9; Jhn 14:16-17), Always available to teach me God's truths (1Cor 2:10-13; John 14:26, 16:13). God's Spirit will strengthen me (Rom 8:11) and intercede for me (8:26-27) God will help me discern between good and evil (1Jhn 2:18-27) and develop character (Gal 5:16-17, 5:22-23) His Word is sufficient to change me completely (1Thes 2:13; Heb 4:12; 2Pet 1:2-4). His Word is able to counsel me in any situation (2Tim 3:16-17), and gives me hope (Rom 15:4). Instead of relying on the wisdom of this world -which is foolish (1Cor 3:19) and inadequate (Isa 55:8-9), I can have God's wisdom (Jas 1:5), strength (Eph 6:10; 2Thes 3:3; 1Jhn 4:4), and sufficiency (Phil 4:19; 2Cor 9:8-10) in every circumstance (1Cor 10:13; Phlp 4:11-13). The Lord Jesus Christ will remain with me (Mat 28:20; Heb 13:5) to sustain me (Jhn 15:1-11) and care for me (Jhn 10:27-29; Eph 5:29) Jesus is and will always be my defender (1Jhn 2:1), and He will always intercede to God our Father on my behalf (Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25) May he turn all your sorrows to joy, keliy |
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153 | No curse can touch you | Gal 3:13 | keliy | 220931 | ||
Hi Giovanna, welcome, it is good having you here. I think maybe the curse of the law that you are speaking of, is that the law can only point to our sin. It helps us to recognize ouselves as sinners, but can do nothing towards curing us or delivering us from even the smallest infraction. For that, we need Christ and Christ alone. Amen? |
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154 | Faith a gift? | Eph 2:8 | keliy | 213076 | ||
Hi Brad, I am sorry to disagree with your answer, but I feel it is difficult to prove a point by plucking out a verse without looking at the verses that precede, or follow the thoughts we are trying to interpret. Romans 10:17 is offered as the prooftext, but looking a little closer, verse 17 is a continuation of a passage that begins in verse 13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Although there are many that do hear the Word yet do not believe. So,this thought goes much deeper than the simple statement so it is continued, for clarification in v. 14. "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Verse 15 continues with the connecting word "But" (I am in the KJV) and again, v.16 begins with "But" and verse 17 begins with "So then" -meaning the author is going to sum up the words that came beforehand. Paul is saying that the word preached is the ordinary way of gaining faith and those that believe have first heard the Word. Yes, Faith cometh by hearing. So what does Jesus have to say, since not all those who hear do actually believe? The different responses to God's Word are not dependent upon grace, for we all receive grace. So as Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:65) He further relates in the same passage: " all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37) Now, both phrases have in common the words, "Come to Me" -which simply mean to believe in Him. So taken together we can learn that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it, and also everyone that God grants to believe, will believe. I am of the mind that this interpretation lines up closer to your second verse, that of Rom 12:3 According to these verses then, God grants faith, a faith that will with no doubt arise in the hearts of those to whom He has given His Son. Lord Bless, and grant us faith keliy |
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155 | Faith a gift? | Eph 2:8 | keliy | 213085 | ||
Thanks Brad, Excellent post. No apology necessary, we all are torn from what we wish we could do, in order to comply with the demands placed upon us through this life. May the Lord bless you keliy |
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156 | Keliy, can faith be predetermined? | Eph 2:8 | keliy | 213100 | ||
Norton, Please remember that we are not dealing with the original language in the verse you are referring to. There is no language that translates 100 percent into any other language. -This means You are placing your understanding at the mercy of an interpretation. "You Have Been" is one interpretation, that is all it is. For instance, the KJV renders it, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God" There are many nuances in the original Greek that can only be covered here in specifics by one who is more knowledgeable than I. But if I may suggest to you, there are moods, tenses, and genders of words that all play a part in proper interpretation. Translation is not just a science, but an art as well, because language is flexible and changes over time. For instance, what would you think, as you are called upon from another country in another time, and you are looking at a phrase such as "let's eat a hot dog" or, "care to join me in a butter burger?" I think it may increase your understanding if you were to look into hermeneutics. a good start would be to go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics I am in agreement with you on Grace. No works can be attached. These works will not survive the refiners fire, but will be burned up like hay. Thank you for your time as well. (o: !! keliy |
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157 | Keliy, can faith be predetermined? | Eph 2:8 | keliy | 213140 | ||
Hello KcabmI4 Very Good question, but it is a little vague to me, so I can only try my best for you. I will run through some parts of your query and try to sum up at the end. Part 1, Is this saying: A person that is not being saved cannot be having Faith? -Not sure. But I do believe that the devil has faith in God, probably knowing the Bible better than us. The devil believes, as he trembles. Part 2, Is it also saying to a saved person? The Statement, made by Paul, who is saved contains "we" so I see him including himself, with his kinsmen. Part 3, If you are trying to live a life towards God by trying to keep laws your faith is then shut away again. That, is hard to answer, brother. Does a person attempt salvation through the law while maintaining a faithful relationship with God? Did he have a saving faith? What God was he trying to please by keeping the law? I am sorry to answer a question with a question, But Verse 24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. So, the law convicts us of our sin, and our need for a Savior. Part 4, We are having the choice to either be keeping of the Laws. Or we can be having Faith. Let me go to Matt 19:16-22. A young man went to Jesus asking what could he do that he may have eternal life. Jesus said, "...keep the commandments" to which the man replied I have kept these from my youth, what do I lack? Jesus said "to be perfect, sell what you have, give it to the poor, and follow me." The young man walked away sorrowful. Jesus knew the man's heart. The man's first mistake was to think that there was something he could DO to gain eternal life. Jesus answered, "If thou wilt be perfect..." So, the standard that must be met is God's standard of perfection. That is humanly impossible. There is no choice to either keep the laws Or to have faith. The law did not ever teach of gaining salvation through the law. But by the sacrifices, it was pointing to Christ, so the law was simply a servant of Christ. Verse 24 calls it "a schoolmaster." Who is a schoolmaster employed by, the school, or the students? (the students do not sign his paycheck) Weymouth New Testament translates v.23 thusly: Before this faith came, we Jews were perpetual prisoners under the Law, living under restraints and limitations in preparation for the faith which was soon to be revealed. I am not sure how to apply that verse in Galatians to our selves today, but there certainly are parallels. Many today continue to live in darkness because they love their sin and also their idols of this world. They are blinded by their pursuit of pleasure, so they attempt to shut the light out. But the sinner that opens his eyes to the light discovers his miserable condition. Then he is able to understand in his own heart that the grace of God and His mercy are the only hope. The letters of the law are signs that show us our need for forgiveness, and bring us to Christ. After that we can use the law for judging ourselves and we begin to depend upon our Savior for strength and wisdom. I hope I answered your questions well enough. Did I miss anything? I will be here if you need something more. Lord Bless, keliy |
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158 | God always gets what he desires? T or F | 1 Tim 2:3 | keliy | 213129 | ||
Hi, I think this might make it easier on you. 7 translations. Just add this, (2:4) to the verse 2:3, above. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. NASB Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. KJV for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. NLT who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. NIV who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; Young's who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth. Darby's Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Webster's "thelo" is the Greek word that follows 'Who', and here is the def. for you: 1) to will, have in mind, intend a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose b) to desire, to wish c) to love 1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing d) to take delight in, have pleasure Blessings, keliy |
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159 | God always gets what he desires? T or F | 1 Tim 2:3 | keliy | 213141 | ||
Hi KcabmI4, Thank you for your question. I saw this after I posted the 7 translations. My suggestion would be to look at the last definition for the Greek word "thelo" to take delight in, have pleasure I would definitely say that God would take delight in all men being saved. So then, that would be His desire. Yes, God can do as He pleases. Like Norton's reference to desiring a new motor for his boat. It would be simple for God to just command a motor to become new. God could also command us to love Him, but that would not be true love. In order for love to be true, there must be an alternative. Or else we would just be a race of talking heads. Without the capacity to decide, -can we possibly make a choice? Faith, and blessings to you. keliy |
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160 | God always gets what he desires? T or F | 1 Tim 2:3 | keliy | 213158 | ||
Hi KcabmI4, You are asking some very good questions, Keep 'em coming :o) You are being clear enough to answer the question, but I might not give the right answer, so we are both human, ok? You ask why would God be having this desire? Well I would answer that since God had enough wisdom to give us freedom of choice, then it would grieve Him whenever we made the wrong choice. Also, (I am going out on a limb here,) words in physical nature are not the same concept in the spiritual realm. When God is said to have regrets, does it really mean what we think? The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. ( Gen 6:6) Since God knew what would happen, there must be some way to describe what God felt. Did God make a mistake? I believe that is against His nature. But for lack of a better word, the NASB uses 'sorry' So, I think you are right when you say how you understand it: "Because what Iam understanding is that there are then 2 apposing beleafs." Yes there are. This is called the debate between 'predestination', and 'free will' This has been debated before and will continue to be so. I say there is a little of both. How much of each is hard to say. But to claim that God uses only one to the exclusion of the other is unbiblical. God chooses people for His purpose, that is true. Examples would include King David, The race of Jews, and the Virgin Mary. Jesus used the Greek word 'eklektos to refer to those who were chosen by God. And He also told the Apostles, that He chose them, they did not choose Him. On the other hand, the Bible never directly tells us when or if people are predestined for hell. But God has used evil people to accomplish His holy purpose. In the Book of Romans, Paul says that evil Pharoah was 'raised up' to be an example of God's power. God also chose Jacob over Esau. God reserves His right to choose to have mercy on some more than others. John prophesies that God will turn over the kingdom of Israel to the beast to fulfill His Word. Yet the conundrum begins when we are told we have free will. In Deuterotomy God tells the people to choose to follow Him: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19) Joshua instructs likewise: "And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) There are other Old Testament verses telling us to choose to follow the Lord. Besides the verses that tell us to make choices, there are verses that say how we are to live. -Obviously, following this advice requires the ability to choose. Choice is not possible if everything is predestined. The Bible says that Jesus died for the sins of all and wants all to repent. I feel that we all are to exalt Jesus so that Father God may be glorified. I have given here a view of free will and of predestination. It is clear that the Bible does not favor either one. I believe that God fore-ordains history. I do not believe that He forces history. But, God puts people in places so that His will is done. There are also different aspects of God's will. Think about God's perfect will, then about His permissive will. I believe you will increase your understanding, but do not try to decipher everything at once. It all is in the Lord's time. joyful blessings to you and yours. keliy |
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