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Results from: Notes Author: fellow worker Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Jehovah lying? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145514 | ||
John 10:32, "Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the (Father); for which of them are you stoning *Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a Man, make Yourself/ out to be God."" Note Jesus says his good works are "from the Father." This Father is Jesus' God. (John 20:17) It is the faithless Jews that falsely accuse Jesus of making himself "God," or perhaps "a god." The latter appears more accurate since the definite article is lacking. As for 'making man in our image," no argument here. After his own creation, Jesus participated in the creation of every other thing, visible and invisible, according to the original Greek. I had a man tell me just a week ago that unless I believe that Jesus is God, second person of the trinity, I will not be saved. I said if he showed me this from the Bible he would have my rapt attention. His effort to save me ended there. I see that we must ackowledge Jesus is the son of God, that he is the Christ and came in the flesh. I see the importance of knowing the Father and the Son. To say two persons are one God was not going to fly, but the platonic notion of a triune God, having its roots in many pagan religions, now there's a number that people could swallow. I find reading the history of the trinity most enlightening, but do not recommend such reading for the faint of heart. For the rest, any high-quality encyclopedia will do. |
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2 | are you saved by Jesus Christ or Jehovah | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145485 | ||
OK, let's agree to disagree whether it's a "vital" matter or not. | ||||||
3 | are you saved by Jesus Christ or Jehovah | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145484 | ||
Paul quotes many Hebrew verses, referring back and forth between "the son" and "God, his God." Once again, because Heb 1:8 is mistranslated in most modern Protestant Bibles (see the actual Psalm 45:6,7 for proof) as is "proskuneo" in verse 6. I don't see why a person wouldn't want to be Christ-like and worship the God he worshiped alone. Psalm 83:18 says Jehovah "alone" is Most High God (that means by himself, by the way). Yet the angel told Mary that her child would be "called Son of the Most High." (Luke 1:32) Man that's simple. |
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4 | are you saved by Jesus Christ or Jehovah | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145479 | ||
Ray: Do you actually understand the meaning of the parable I cited at Luke 19? Do you know this has to do with future actions Jesus will take against the house of God first, that have squandered their opportunity to bear witness to Christ Jesus? And, isn't that circular reasoning to capitalize a word referring to Jesus 'because of his deity,' and then turn around and use such translations to support this claim? I could feel BeDuhn's frustration with individuals that, have been mislead, then swear by it. Let's just agree to disagree on this vital matter. |
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5 | 'I AM' or 'I exist'? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145431 | ||
Don't quite get your point. Many "sinners" performed signs. Were they God? This blind man knew Jesus was from God - that his authority and power were from God. That he was born sinless and remained such is indisputable. That he had a prehuman existence and ascended back to heaven to approach God with the merits of his sacrificial life and blood is irrefutable. I'm assuming you believe this as well. You'll need to speak more plainly. |
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6 | 'I AM' or 'I exist'? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145428 | ||
"I find it highly ironic that the so called Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim what Jehovah Himself denied - that there is more than one god." Is the apostle Paul one of Jehovah's Witnesses? According to you - Yes! For he claims: "(There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6) Please address the passages I referenced at Exodus 4:16 and 7:1. I was indulgent enough to respond to your request. |
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7 | are you saved by Jesus Christ or Jehovah | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145424 | ||
Are you a Mormon? That's what they teach. | ||||||
8 | are you saved by Jesus Christ or Jehovah | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145423 | ||
(Psalm 110:1-2) . . .The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet." The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:] "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies." Although most translators obscure the truth by their pharisaic presumptuousness in removing the divine name from their works, the above illustrates how clearly the distinction between Jesus and Jehovah is to the enlightened. (Luke 20:42) For David himself says in the book of Psalms, 'Jehovah said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand. David knew the difference between Jehovah and his Lord. (Luke 19:27) Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.'" Jesus knew who had given him his kingship - he certainly did not give it to himself. (Dan 7:13-14;Matt 28:18) For every poorly translated verse, such as Heb 1:8, there are 50 to reveal the obvious truth. (John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God (Jehovah), and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. That's two, not three, just as Jesus reminded his enemies at John 8:17,18. Don't side with losers, blind guides, that took it upon themselves to not use God's self-given name, Jehovah. What blasphemy! |
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9 | 'I AM' or 'I exist'? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145331 | ||
Tim: The literal translation is "in the form of God." Your references to Isaiah are convoluted and I've seen this attempt to entrap those who view Jehovah as the only God and Jesus as his firstborn Son. The answer again is found in the Bible. Jehovah himself had called Moses "god" if not "God" to Pharaoh and Aaron. I've cited Jesus and Paul's quotes as well already. Isaiah's quote is obviously referring to any other "true God." (See Jesus' prayer at John 17:3) Notice how biased translations always get the capitalization exactly backwards! Coincidence? Jason and millions more think not. Don'taccuse the NW of twisting 'harpazmo.' That's a boldface falsehood. |
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10 | 'I AM' or 'I exist'? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145327 | ||
Ray: BeDuhn did not compare the NKJ for the following reason: "Whoever did this cleanup work on the KJV brought little new scholarship to their work, and rather completely ignored all of the advances in textual and linguistic knowledge achieved in the 450 years between the KJV and the NKJB. Most astonishingly, the NKJB uses the same text base as the KJV, which is different in nearly 6,000 places from modern critical texts of the NT, and in some passages has no basis in Greek manuscripts at all." (Someone said the NW is just a cleaned up KJ - yah right!) As regards John 9:38, he has a whole chapter on the Greek "proskuneo" called Bowing To Bias. Again, the NW "receive(s) the highest marks for accuracy, while the others show a tendency to lapse into interpretive judgments guided by their theological biases." Did you notice that John 9:33 says Jesus is "from God"? This is the consistent distinction throughout the entire Bible - Jesus and God. We should listen to the blind man and learn that Jesus could do nothing if not for God. Do you imagine that this means I do not view him as Lord? As my high priest and mediator before God? Or that I esteem his ransom as of ordinary value? Or perhaps that I don't see him as a mighty warrior King about to end the suffering of the oppressed and downtrodden by annihilating the wicked? He personally cleansed the heavens of powerful wicked spirits and now provides a spiritual paradise as congregation head for those who worship the Father in spirit and truth. Exercising faith in Jesus means being obedient to him. (John 3:16,36) We can talk doctrine all day, "all the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works." The true Christian way is exalted in these! Don't get me wrong, "faith follows the things heard," but it doesn't have to be like looking for a needle in a haystack for the truth - look at the fruits. (Rom 10:17;Matt 7:16) Best wishes, Ben |
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11 | 'I AM' or 'I exist'? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145268 | ||
After citing numerous examples regarding the root word harpazo at Phil 2:6, BeDuhn writes: "There is not a single word derived from harpazo that is used to suggest holding on to something already possessed." Showing that the translators are biased by examples he goes on: "You can see that the word has connotations of seizing something violently or unjustly. The NW translators understood harpagmos accurately as grasping at something one does not have, that is, a "seizure." Christ did not even think of grabbing at equality with God." In one of the few times that he offers possible interpretation, he links this truth with Paul's view of Christ as the second Adam. (1 Cor 15:45) Unlike Adam who did try to seize equality with God, the ability to decide good and bad, Jesus was humble and set the example for us. My how accurate translation can assist in interpretation! |
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12 | Is BeDuhn correct on John 8:58? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145264 | ||
Qualifications may be necessary, but the proof is in the results. If not qualified, why have unbiased scholars praised this translation? Also, isn't it possible that highly qualified Greek scholars might succumb to bias and waste their talents, even misleading readers? That's what BeDuhn has found and documented. Why is it that Luke 10:21,22 is true? This is the way approved by God. Good motive, a pure heart - wouldn't you agree that this is what will cause God to bless one's efforts. "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." Who are those that He sanctifies by revealing truth? Those that are true disciples of Jesus - "no part of the world." (Jo 17:16,17) This is the form of worship that God accepts. (James 1:27; 4:4) This is how you identify true Christians, not by the number of letters behind one's name or the amount of money he's made off religion. |
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13 | Is BeDuhn correct on John 8:58? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145263 | ||
1) Lying is not looked upon lightly by God, and saying you lived thousands of years ago, if not true, is a pretty big one. The Jews at Jo 8:13 say: "Your witness is not true." 2)You might, but a Greek scholar, Mr. BeDuhn, would not. I'll take his impartial word. |
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14 | Is BeDuhn correct on John 8:58? | John 8:58 | fellow worker | 145177 | ||
Your quote is correct. He also states: "I am not claiming that Jesus' remark in John 8:58 is without theological significance, nor that it has nothing to do with to OT background." There is something here for a prideful Jew to kill Jesus over - he is claiming to have been alive before Abraham! BeDuhn does not see the NW as the best translation of the verse, but the LB: "I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!" He concludes: "The average Bible reader might never guess that there was something wrong with the other translations, and might even assume that the error was to be found in the LB and NW. When all you can do is compare the English translations, and count them up like votes, the LB and NW stick out as different in John 8:58. It is natural to assume that the majority are correct and the odd ones at fault. It is only when translations are checked against the original Greek, as they should be, that a fair assessment can be made, and the initial assumption can be seen to be wrong." Tim, you say that Jesus is not addressing the question of identity. Exactly. It’s about how long he’s existed. So you agree this verse has been abused as a trinity proof. Since I know no one will actually read this book, at least not with an open mind, I’ll spoil the ending. How does one explain how Jehovah’s Witnesses could have published the most accurate and least biased of the modern translations compared? “The Jehovah’s Witness movement was and is a more radical break with the dominant Christian tradition of the previous millennium than most kinds of Protestantism. This movement has, unlike the Protestant Reformation, really sought to re-invent Christianity from scratch. Whether you regard that as a good or a bad thing, you can probably understand that it resulted in the Jehovah’s Witnesses approaching the Bible with a kind of innocence, and building their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.” On the other hand, he boldly declares that “when the Protestant Reformation occurred just five hundred years ago, it did not re-invent Christianity from scratch, but carried over many of the doctrines that had developed within Catholicism over the course of the previous thousand years and more. In this sense, one might argue that the Protestant Reformation is incomplete, that it did not fully realize the high ideals that were set for it.” Amen to that. |
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15 | Has anyone read BeDuhn's new book? | Phil 2:6 | fellow worker | 145115 | ||
To those rightly disposed for everlasting life: Mr. BeDuhn debuhnks John 8:58 very easily as well. Like I say, a "must read." What possible motivation do you think he has for publishing a work that he obviously knew would be unpopular with Christendom? He would have sold a boatload more if he had written another JW-basher. Take yourself, for example. Will you purchase this book? If it concluded that the translators of the NW were incompetent idiots, wouldn't it have been irresistable? Are we in the last days? Jesus gave a sign for his disciples at that time to recognize that 'their salvation was near.' (Matt 24:3; Luk 21:28) Is Satan misleading the entire earth? Jesus and John said he is. (John 14:30; 1 John 5:19) Didn't Satan sow weeds in among the good seed that would make the wheat hard to distinguish until the time of the end? Jesus said he would. (Matt 13) Paul said such weed-like false Christians would arise from among the congregation. (Acts 20:30) At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name. The words at Malachi 3:16-18 are having fulfillment: "And they will certainly become mine," Jehovah of armies has said, "at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him. And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him." Jesus said his true disciples would be marked by uncommon brotherly love. (John 13:35) Compare that to the rotten fruit of professed Christians that shoot and bomb persons of their own sect of Christendom because Caesar foments hatred. Show me one passage in the NT that supports such actions. I'll show you dozens that make it plain how Christians should view and treat persons that God loved so much that he sent his son to die for them. Study history along with the Bible to see its prophecy being fulfilled to the letter. Sincerely, Ben |
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16 | Has anyone read BeDuhn's new book? | Phil 2:6 | fellow worker | 144537 | ||
Hank and I were just enjoying a conversation about the value of a good translation. (Sorry I took so long to get back Hank.) You are venturing into interpretation. Do you agree with Jason BeDuhn when he states: "The average Christian may be unaware to what degree he or she depends upon the knowledge and intellectual integrity of . . . translators . . and ministers to accurately and honestly convey what the Bible really says . ." He adds: "But the sensible advice of "buyer beware" seems to be forgotten in this market." Speaking of markets, from the comments I'm hearing thus far on forums like this, it seems to me that had BeDuhn arrived at a different conclusion than he did he could have sold a whole lot more books. That makes me wonder what you and Hank would say about his motivation in addressing this subject to which "very little attention is given in public . . Only a handful of books have been published on this subject, and their own reliability is, unfortunately, very poor." His "Final Word" is quite interesting as he speculates about what could account for the two translations that he found to be most accurate and least biased. He speaks of the "Protestant Burden," that is, not having shed all the unscriptural doctrines of her older sister, Catholicism. He asks: "Why make it (a Bible translation)a prop for the creeds of later centuries, of later interpretations, rather than a world-changing event in its own right? And what does that sort of imposition on the Bible say about the "truth" of those who would commit it? To me, it expresses a lack of courage, a fear that the Bible does not back up their "truth" enough. To let the Bible have its say, regardless of how well or poorly that say conforms to expectations or accepted forms of modern Christianity is an exercise in courage or, to use another word for it, faith." Amen to that! Jesus asked: "When the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?" (Lu 18:8) Perhaps he could have asked: "Will he really find an accurate and unbiased translation?" Yes, but few will find it. (Matt 7:14) No, you can't have accurate interpretation that builds true faith without accurate translation. Now how are we going to discuss the person of Jesus or any other Bible topic if we can't agree on its translation? |
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17 | Has anyone read BeDuhn's new book? | Phil 2:6 | fellow worker | 144327 | ||
I've read most of the correspondence between Hommel and BeDuhn. This is an exchange between a Greek scholar and an admitted non-Greek scholar. To Mr. Hommel I would submit Luke 10:21. Let the Greek scholars put their credentials on the line as does BeDuhn. | ||||||
18 | Has anyone read BeDuhn's new book? | Phil 2:6 | fellow worker | 144324 | ||
I've heard of judging a book by its cover, but this goes just a tad further. In Mr. BeDuhn's preface he writes: "I was moved to write because of my shock at the lack of the most basic facts about the Bible in the modern popular debate over its accurate translation and meaning. I was greatly disappointed to find that the few well-trained scholars who have participated in the debate, for reasons known only to themselves, have chosen to reinforce rather than alleviate the burden of misinformation and wanton bias in the debate." I hope more have the courage to stand up to the slander that is sure to greet any that attempt to voice the unpopular. May they rejoice in knowing their lord Jesus suffered similarly. By the way, where can one buy a New World translation? I've looked at all the religious book stores - online and elsewhere. |
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