Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Notes Author: Whitewave Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86840 | ||
Hank, Thank you for your humble tone. I just don't have the time or the energy to explain to you all how much you don't understand who I am or what I'm up to. ... You just wasted an hour of my badly needed sleep time provoking me to say things that I don't really want to say. I've deleted it all twice. I'm exausted. I came here looking for any help in understanding the theory behind the NASB translation of Romans 9:23. So many words exchanged, and so little understanding or wisdom. So much well-intended prayer and outspokenness, and so much destruction. Whitewave |
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2 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86832 | ||
nnnnnnn-k. I've looked at our conversation again and I see that I got dragged into a debate about some things that I did not come here to debate. I left myself open to it to some extent, but I'm sure that I've tried to stick to the topic. You are treating me inappropriately. I have been advised to blow you off. I'm going to take 3 days off from reading your posts in order to cool off, then hopefully the inspiration for how to respond kindly to you will come to me. Whitewave |
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3 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86753 | ||
"Here they come..." All this reflects many common misunderstandings. The top of the Authority ladder is not the Bible. The top of the Authority ladder is GOD. Skip the "yeah, but..."s. It's God. God. God. "God's Word" is anything He expresses. This includes much of the Bible, but mainly His ultimate expression is Jesus Christ. "Expresses" is a general term, not a technical one. I'm using it to signify anything that comes out of Him. There are things which have come out of God which are not contained within the pages, and there are things which are within the pages, which did not come out of God. I'm not talking about the fact that the history is recorded, that is a God thing. I'm talking about what that history records. I'll give you only one verse. 1 Cor. 7:12 If you want to hash all this out with me, then it may go kinda slow because going over this issue again with yet another person who doesn't know me is not high on my priority list. You are panicking over nothing, because if you met me you would see that there are few other people who warm the pews every Sunday at even the most conservative churches who respect the Bible as much as I do. In practice, I revere the Bible greatly. The theories that I have been exposed to, however, do not fit neatly into the simplistic catagories that you seem to limit me to. I'm sorry, but you do not know me and are jumping to conclusions about my faith that are just false. This entire post has the faint scent of reactionary deffensiveness. I'm going to guess about this, even though I may be wrong, and say straight up- that I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by questioning your authority here. I may have been too harsh in my treatment of your first post and so offended you. You obviously care alot about people's walk and their faith. I'll tell you honestly that I don't usually read people's profiles because I want to respond to their text directly, without any interferance from status or age or gender or whatever. Those things tend to bring an influence that does not neccarily coincide with how a person interacts with others. Perhaps you don't know many people who are as honest about themselves and their lives as I have been in my profile. This too is sadly common in the Church. I can assure you that my struggles are the same struggles that surround you when you sit in Church every Sunday. On the surface, people may smile and laugh and say, "AMEN!" and act as if all were glory and victory. But, I assure you, under that veneer are hurting, confused, angry, bereft human beings. The lie of the devil is this: "A Christian's life should be good and satisfying and happy and well and they should have nothing to scream or cry about." Much of what you've written reflects things I was taught years ago and used to believe. [Please read that last sentence again.] There is no experience in my life which is uncommon to man. Just because I too feel the sentence of death, like Paul, doesn't mean it is a result of not believing as you believe about the Bible. I suspect we are both trying to be patient with one another. You are an evangelical. I am not. In terms of faith, I have been where you are. You have not been where I am. I must go. Whitewave |
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4 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86747 | ||
Hia. Actually I'm dealing with the NASB, not the Amp. Thanks. Whitewave |
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5 | That didn't really answer my question. | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86728 | ||
Hi Hank. I've got some stuff in my profile, however I cannot comply with the "nothing overly revelatory" part. If you want to know me at all, that's one of the first things you'll learn. I'm overly revelatory. Big time. I consider keeping privacy in the Church to be part of the "playing church" syndrome that so many churches have been plagued by. A Church that doesn't want to know me is not the Church for me. Sorry if it upsets you, but I hope it's helpful anyway. Whitewave |
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6 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86721 | ||
Hia. PS first: I'm sorry about the profile thing, I haven't had time yet. I'll get to it soon. I only have one day off this weekend and I have to get my chores done as well as go with my Mom to help her finish cleaning out the house she just moved out of today. That will be an all day job, and I'm likely to be occupied with cooking and such 'til late tonight, then it's back to the grind. I promise I'll get to it. I myself have had the same desire in my heart to seek as the "Berean". I endeavored to have a teachable spirit and learn with humility and respect. I believed that God would honor that with wisdom and knowledge and some degree of respect from my family and community. Those things never came to me even though the Bible told me so. I had to come to some conclusions about that. After I found out what a Calvinist was, I realized that I had been taught mainly with that tradition so most of my thinking was based on that concept. I felt as if the Authorities were keeping Armenianism a secret from me. This sort of thing has happened to me over and over with other doctrines; inerrancy, rapture, dispensationalism, hypostatic union and others. The more it happens, the less I tend to trust any one denomination, teacher, tradition or theological construct to teach me what really is. While I think most people nowadays don't put all their eggs in any one denominational basket, there are still many who don't realize that their worldview is limited to what teaching they've been exposed to. They don't realize that they are still wearing the Calvinist glasses to read the Bible. This is what I was trying to show you. I had to learn it too. There are many ideas out there that you have no doubt been "protected" from being exposed to. There are shepherds who believe that their job is to tell you only what you can "handle" so that you don't become confused even though they know better. For instance: there are many ideas about what happens to us after we die which people in the pews need to believe, but which any Pastor who has gone to more than one good class can tell you is not the actual truth from the Bible. But do they tell us? No. When you interact with people at funerals, I'm sure you can understand why. The sword of Predestination was used when you suggested that I trust that all things will work out in the end and to not usurp authority by trying to change what's happening here and now. That is the "use" of the sword. [Using the sword of Predestination could be a good topic for a string if I had the time and energy for it, but I don't right now.] Hm. I think the metaphor of straining at gnats and swallowing camels is different than what you meant here. But I think I see what you mean. One of the things I discovered in my research on alternative ideas about the authority of Scripture is that we tend to talk about the Bible as if it is the final authority. (see this page: http://www.gospelcom.net/lockman/tlf/tlfabout.php and note the 4th sub-statement within the last part (the "fourfold aim" part) under the subtitle "Mission Statement") The Lockman Foundation makes it appear as if Jesus Christ is subservient to the Bible. Of course, that would be silly. If the Bible is in an arm wrestling match with the True God of the Universe, who will win? Obviously it's not the Bible. But we ignore this obvious fault in our statement because of what we believe about knowledge. It is this underlying belief about knowledge that I am questioning, not the trustworthiness of the Bible. God, bless you as well, and I did not miss the blessing, I just saw what appeared to be a contradiction to it. Whitewave |
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7 | What's up with the italics in vs. 23? | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86679 | ||
Thank you for your encouragement. I think you have just demonstrated what I am concerned about. Note the structure of your post: [Doctrinal idea] "This morning, my focus has been on the sovereignty of God and that we are God's possession." (OT Scripture quote.) [Movement from doctrine to scripture in question] "I believe these truths rings loudly in Romans 9. In verses 14-21" [Assimilation of idea and target scripture] "supports the stated purpose of God which I believe Paul presumes the reader... knows." [outcome of assimilation] "As I read this passage I am reminded" [Target NT Scripture quote] [Restating Scripture using outcome of assimilation] ""So what if God chose to . . . SO WHAT!"" [Introduction of previously undeveloped Anthropological idea] "Since we all have a burning desire to know WHY?" [Speculation about Translator's rendering of Scripture in question using new idea- assimilation not demonstrated but assumed] "I suspect the NASB translators took a "liberty"" [Statement of Faith in justification of Translator's rendering using another related Scripture] "However, to me, it is supported by..." (NT Scripture quote) [Suggestion that reader consider presented argument] "Ponder these things." [Authoritative reminder to not question Authority] "..let's not usurp His authority." [Closing Blessing] [Signature] ___________ This is my undisciplined form of deconstruction. It is a wonderful tool that provides an opportunity to learn alot about why we think we know what we know. The truth is that I would probably construct a post very similar to it in response. But I would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER include that last bit about usurping "God"'s authority! Never! It even seems contradictory to what you began with at the top of the post: "if God has set this desire in your heart, then you will be blessed in pursuing it." I'm going to suggest some things for you to think about as well. One objective of Teaching is to teach people how to think, not just what to think. Babies must be fed by another. When we grow up, we feed ourselves and decide if what goes in our mouth actually goes down our throats or not. Your interpretaion of Scripture seems to be built upon a solid foundation of Doctrine instead of the other way 'round. We all do it. I do it. I have earned the right to question the interpretations of others because I question my own on a regular basis. While I understand deeply the importance of the idea of "Revelation" to the rhelm of Theological thought, I do not confuse the Revelation of God with the words that I read in in an English Bible Translation. The two are not neccessarily the same. Nor am I a fatalist, believing that what exists, is good enough because it has had to pass through God's judgement about what may or may not exist in order to exist at all. The reason I tend to ignore arguments about Predestination and all is because bad things like this happen when we do: "they will be held accountable by God - let's not usurp His authority." This denies the validity of any just action taken by the Church in this world today. The whole anti-abortion movement in the 90's drilled us on the failings of this kind of idea. The lack of resistance to Hitler was backed up by this idea as well. Be careful when weilding the sword of Predestination. I don't think it's meant for our hands at all. I don't think Paul uses it himself to slay dragons of complaint. I think he just picks it up and holds it and says, "What if it were used thusly?" ...and then puts it down. It's too easy for us humans to try to use it to back up our own prefered scenarios and support our worldly fears. God Himself uses it in the end of Job. Jesus uses it when answering one of Peter's many questions after the Resurection. It doesn't really belong to us. God, Bless you. Whitewave |
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8 | That didn't really answer my question. | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86659 | ||
Ak! I found it! nasb@lockman.org Thanks all, I'll post the response I get. Whitewave |
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9 | That didn't really answer my question. | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86655 | ||
[rib-rib] Whitewave |
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10 | That didn't really answer my question. | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86654 | ||
Dude! I'm just elbowing you. I'm not offended. I got your elbow in my ribs and I'm just returning the gesture. It's okay! I'm used to talking to young people out here, so I'm good at cyber-wrestling. Thanks for the link, but I was there, and I didn't see a "Contact the translators" type of link. What should I look for? Whitewave |
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11 | That didn't really answer my question. | Rom 9:23 | Whitewave | 86412 | ||
Hi, Radioman. Yeah, I caught that sarcasm there. I started out trying to find a way to contact the Pub. on this, but this is all I found. You or Hank could help me out by showing me where the link is in this maze to email the Pub. I will do that. I honestly am not one to fall for the "opinion poll" idea, I'm just looking for anyone out here who maybe is part of this translating team, who does answer questions. It would be sad if they didn't monitor what was going on out here at all, don't ya think? Whitewave |
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