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Results from: Notes Author: Holmes Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230283 | ||
Hi Tim, It is an interesting argument that God the Father was only the God of the Lord Jesus Christ during a 33-year span while Jesus was alive as a man. Also, that this is the only time that God the Father was greater than the Son. Sounds like they were “co-equal” except when they weren’t. However, I do not see this supported by scripture. John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” This was, of course, pre-incarnate and clearly shows a line of authority from the Father to the Son. 1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. This is post-incarnate and the line of authority remains. I see the relationship between the Father and the Son as constant. And when Christ was here, he was “God with us.” None of this diminishes Christ one iota. What brings Him honor and praise is His absolute submission to the Father. This is the lesson for us, the path that Christ followed is the one we are to follow. Holmes |
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2 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230261 | ||
Hi lionheart, You wrote: “Would you please then share scripture where it says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not co-equal.” In my note of November 10 I offered the following scripture: John: 14:28 “I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John: 20:17 “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.” Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and again in verse 17: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." In addition, consider Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.” Or John 10:29 “My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.” God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are both Gods. Logic dictates that they can be either “co-equal” or God the Father is greater. They cannot be both! So my question remains. If a person does not believe that the two are “co-equal” as stated in the Doctrine of the Trinity, will that person be denied salvation? Holmes |
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3 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230231 | ||
Beja, Thank you for your thoughts. Holmes |
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4 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230229 | ||
Hi Beja, OK, I forgive you for being wrong. No predetermined course, just a couple of simple questions. It seems to me that these scriptures are speaking of authority. If the Father is greater in authority, then they are not co-equal. Or is there something in the Doctrine that I am missing? Is there an exception for authority? Holmes |
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5 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230222 | ||
Hi Beja, You wrote: “With regards to the Christ question you are going to have to clarify. In my ears you are saying contradictory remarks. They are acknowledging that Jesus is God yet not equal? You'd have to explain in what sense He is God and in what sense He is not equal. To me you are saying, lets begin with assuming there is a square circle. I can't get around the assumptions of the case in order to be able to answer you.” In what sense is Jesus God? I don’t think there is any disagreement here. In what sense is Jesus not equal to the Father? In the sense that Jesus stated this Himself and that He has a God and that God is His Father. Are there any scriptures that state that the Father or Holy Spirit have a God? Can you admit that some may read these verses and conclude that God the Father is greater than Jesus the Son, who is also God? Was Jesus making a contradictory remark and assuming there is a square circle? John: 14:28 “I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John: 20:17 “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.” Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and again in verse 17: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." I hope this helps you get around the assumptions so that you can answer the question, that is, must one believe that God the Father and Jesus are equal to gain salvation? Holmes |
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6 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230215 | ||
Hi Beja, I appreciate your attempts to answer the question. This seems to me to be very important, a matter of salvation. So let me rephrase the questions to see if I can get a yes or no, then you can explain all you want. Please do not read anything into the questions beyond what is asked. A person believes in the Holy Spirit, but as the spirit of God the Father and not as a separate person. The Doctrine of the Trinity is explained to him and he rejects that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. He does not reject anything else about the Doctrine. Could that person be denied salvation solely because he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person? A person believes that Jesus is not co-equal with God the Father. The Doctrine of the Trinity is explained to him and he rejects that Jesus is co-equal to God the Father. He is not denying that Jesus is God or any other part of the Doctrine. Could that person be denied salvation solely because he does not believe that Jesus and God the Father are co-equal? Thanks, Holmes |
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7 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230210 | ||
Hi Beja, Thank you for your thoughts. I think your answer in regards to church membership is clear. Your answer is yes, belief in the Trinity, and all of the elements thereof, should be required before a person can become a member of the church. I believe this is the actual policy of most Protestant churches. Your answer as to salvation is murky. My question is easily answered yes or no. There is no gray area. So let me rephrase the question. A person believes that Jesus is the Son of God the Father. That Jesus was crucified for our sins, was buried and arose from the dead after 3 days, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. The same person believes in the Holy Spirit, but as the spirit of God the Father and not as a separate person. Is that person denied salvation because he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person? Holmes |
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8 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230191 | ||
Hi Searcher, Do you think that belief in the Doctrine of the Trinity and the elements as stated should be required for church membership and is it necessary for salvation? Thanks, Holmes |
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9 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230190 | ||
Hi Beja, Your exchange of scriptures with ewg1938 was very interesting. I appreciate your comments and use of scripture. I would like to see your answers to the two questions that I asked. Thanks, Holmes |
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10 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230188 | ||
Hi justme, You obviously have different beliefs from ewg1938 on the subject of the Trinity. It would seem reasonable then for you to directly answer the two questions I asked. Thanks, Holmes |
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11 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230186 | ||
Hi ewg1938, Thank you for directly answering the two questions I asked. It is obvious that your answer to both is no. Thanks, Holmes |
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12 | How did Moses know he was Jewish? | Ex 2:8 | Holmes | 229311 | ||
You are correct that Moses was not a Jew as that term is applied in the scriptures. The first use of the term “Jews” in the Bible is found in II Kings 16:6. King Rezin of Syria recaptured Elath from the Jews. King Rezin had waged war against Jerusalem with his ally, King Pekah of Israel! So here you see the Northern Kingdom of Israel at war against the Jews! In the O/T it seems fairly certain that the word “Jews” referred to those Hebrew subjects of the Southern Kingdom of Judea and latter to their descendants, wherever they lived. This would include those who were members of the tribes of Levi and Benjamin who were subjects of Judea. The term “Hebrew” was first applied to Abram in Genesis 14:13 and thereafter to his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. It was not Egyptian terminology. Holmes |
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13 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229270 | ||
Hi Biblicalman, You wrote, "Joshua was thirty eight years old at the Exodus (Joshua 14.7)." What am I missing here? I see where it says that Caleb was 40 years old when they were sent to spy out the land. How are you coming up with Joshua being 38? Thanks, Holmes |
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14 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229255 | ||
Part Two - Joshua So, if the Israelites were in Egypt for 270 years, how can the genealogy of Joshua be explained (1 Chronicles 7:20-27)? 1. Joshua was a “young man” at the time of the exodus (Exodus 33:11). He was at least 20 years old because he was old enough to fight and lead in battle. Therefore, I will put his date of birth at 250 years (20 years old) of the 270 years. 2. Joseph is the patriarch in this line. We know that his son Ephraim was born in the 7 good years before the drought. Jacob and company arrived in the second year of the drought. Therefore, we will say Ephraim was born about 5 years before the start of the 270 years. This leaves a net of 255 years, which must be divided by 16 generations. A total of 18 generations including Joseph and Joshua. (I know there are a total of 11 generations for Joshua and I will explain below why I am using 18.) 245 years divided by 16 generations equals out to 16 years per generation. 3. Now 16 years for each generation is possible, but it would likely mean that each generation began with a firstborn child. 4. Jacob bought the family birthright, which normally went to the firstborn, from his brother Esau (Genesis 25:33). The birthright then passed to Joseph (1 Chronicles 5:2). Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim. Manasseh was the firstborn, but when Jacob blessed his grandsons, he transferred the birthright to Ephraim, despite Joseph’s objections (Genesis 48). Therefore, the birth-line from Ephraim to Joshua appears to be the birthright line, allowing Joshua to lead Israel into Canaan and be their leader. 5. Circa the 11th year of the Israelites in Egypt, Ephraim had a son, Shuthelah. 6. Circa the 27th year Shuthelah had a son, Bered. 7. Circa the 43rd year Bered had a son, Tahath. Tahath was the 3rd generation of Ephraim’s sons. Circa the 53rd year, Joseph died (Genesis 50:23). 8. Circa the 59th year, Tahath had a son, Eleadah. 9. Circa the 75th year, Eleadah had a son, Tahath. 10. Circa the 91st year, Tahath had a son, Zabad. 11. Circa the 109th year, Zabad had three sons, Shuthelah, Ezer and Elead. They were murdered by the men of Gath and this appears to have put an end to the line of the firstborn. This may partly be the reason that Ephraim mourned their deaths for many dates. Please note that Ephraim is now about 115 years old and these are his 6th great grandchildren! Ephraim, like Jacob, still retained the right to pass along the birthright as he desired. These are the 7 generations that were added to the 11 of Joshua. 12. Circa the 123th year, Ephraim has a son, Beriah (3rd Generation) by a different wife. 13. Circa the 139th year, Beriah has a son, Rephah. Beriah also has an additional son, Resheph and a daughter, Sheerah (4th Generation), who built lower and upper Beth-horon and Uzzen-sheerah in Canaan. Sheerah was likely born many years after Rephah, as many as a hundred years or more, when compared to the fact that her father was born when her Grandfather Ephraim was about 131 years old. This would make Sheerah 28 years old or even younger at the time of the Exodus. 14. Circa the 155th year, Rephah has a son, Telah. 15. Circa the 171th year, Telah has a son, Tahan. 16. Circa the 187th year, Tahan has a son, Ladan. 17. Circa the 203th year, Ladan has a son, Ammihud. 18. Circa the 219nd year, Ammihud has a son, Elishama. 19. Circa the 235th year, Elishama has a son, Nun. 20. Circa the 250th year, Nun has a son, Joshua. 21. 270, the Exodus. Holmes |
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15 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229254 | ||
Hi biblicalman, I have reviewed scripture to determine if it would be possible for Sheerah to have been in the exodus and entered Canaan with her 5th Great Grandnephew Joshua. To give a complete answer I will show the genealogy for first Moses and then Joshua. This will be in two parts since it exceeds the total amount of words allowed for one post. Part One – Moses You wrote, “So Ephraim's granddaughter married a rich Canaanite and returned to Canaan say 200 years before the exodus, rebuilding 3 cities? As Ephraim's family would also be rich this is not surprising. But you are surely not suggesting that she returned with Moses and with her great great great great great grandson Joshua? That would be stretching credulity too far.” It is important not to wildly speculate and give interpretation for which there is no biblical support as you have done above. However, that said, the question at hand is this: Is it possible that the fourth-generation Hebrew, Sheebah, could have been in the exodus from Egypt and entered into Canaan at the same time as Joshua, her 5th great grand-nephew? There are several factors that must be considered to understand the solution to this question. All scripture must be in harmony. First we look at the genealogy of Moses. 1. I have already shown that the 400 years mentioned in Genesis 15:13 included time in Canaan and then Egypt. 2. In Genesis 15:16 God promises Abraham that the Israelites will return to Canaan “in the fourth generation. It does not mean a set number of years, i.e. a generation means 100 years. If that were true, then “in the fourth generation” would be anywhere between 301-400 years, not just 400 years. 3. Exodus 12:40-41 indicates that the sons of Israel were in Egypt for EXACTLY 430 years. The original text also indicates this was both Canaan and Egypt. Note that 430 years is different from 400 years. 4. Paul explains the 430 years in Gal. 3:16-17. This time began with God’s covenant concerning Abraham’s seed, Jesus Christ, which was made at the time Abraham offered up his son Isaac. This was a foreshadow of the Passover to come. The time ended on Passover as the exodus from Egypt began, shortly after which the law, the Ten Commandments, were given. 5. Isaac was thirty years old when he was offered. We can determine this from the fact that his son Jacob was born 30 years later when Isaac was 60 years old (Genesis 25:26). From the birth of Jacob to the Exodus was 400 years. 6. When Jacob arrived in Egypt he was 130 years old (Genesis 47:9). Therefore, the time of the Israelites in Egypt was 270 years. 7. Levi was of the first generation in Egypt and he lived to be 137 years old (Genesis 6: 16). It is likely that he was about 70 years old when he arrived. 8. His son Kohath was also first generation in Egypt, 2nd generation from Levi, and he lived to be 133 years old (Genesis 46:11, Exodus 6:18). 9. Kohath’s son, Amram, was born in Egypt, a third generation. He lived to be 137 years old (Genesis 6:20). 10. Amram was the father of Moses, fourth generation. Moses was eighty years old when he led the exodus (Exodus 7:7). He was born when the Israelites had been in Egypt for 190 years (270-80 is 190 years). It is possible that Kohath was an infant in Egypt and that he was about 95 years old when Amram was born and that Amram was about 95 years old when Moses was born. This timeframe is within the limits of Kohath’s age upon arrival in Egypt, the birth of Amram and the birth of Moses. It does not fit with the 400-year timeframe. Holmes |
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16 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229228 | ||
Hi biblicalman, I concur with your comments, well said. We disagree on many positions regarding scripture. However, I appreciate other points of view and like to know why those views are held. You have offered scripture that I had not fully known or taken into account and hold me to account to represent my own views as supported by scripture. This helps me to learn and grow and hopefully gives others the opportunity to consider different viewpoints and make their own judgements. Holmes |
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17 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229227 | ||
Hi biblicalman, - You wrote: “But you are surely not suggesting that she returned with Moses and with her great great great great great grandson Joshua? That would be stretching credulity too far.” I would be suggesting that. However, as you have pointed out the 7 generations between Sheerah and Joshua stretches credulity and I must agree. Especially since Sherrah and Joshua would have to be approximately the same age when they entered Canaan. It would seem to me that these passages may have a different meaning than what they say on their face and must be interpreted elsewhere in scripture. One correction, Joshua is the 5th great grand nephew of Sheerah. I cede this point to you, pending further study. Holmes |
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18 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229214 | ||
Hi CDBJ, Sorry, that would be no, my first name is not John. Holmes |
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19 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229205 | ||
1 Chronicles 7:22-27 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 22 Their father Ephraim mourned many days, and his relatives came to comfort him. 23 Then he went in to his wife, and she conceived and bore a son, and he named him Beriah, because misfortune had come upon his house. 24 His daughter was Sheerah, who built lower and upper Beth-horon, also Uzzen-sheerah. 25 Rephah was his son along with Resheph, Telah his son, Tahan his son, 26 Ladan his son, Ammihud his son, Elishama his son, 27 Non his son and Joshua his son. Hi biblicalman, You have made much of the genealogy of Joshua as compared to Moses and I failed to address that issue, so let me do so now. The “fourth generation” would return to Canaan. What is the “fourth generation?” Joseph would be 1st generation, his children would be 2nd generation, his grandchildren would be 3rd generation and his great-grandchildren would be “fourth generation.” The “fourth Generation” returning would also include the generations of their descendants, however many that might be. In the case of Joshua, it was the eleventh generation. Now let us look closely at these verses. Joseph was the 1st generation and his son Ephraim was the 2nd generation. In verse 23, Ephraim had a son, Beriah, and he was the 3rd generation and the grandson of Joseph. Beriah’s children would be “the fourth generation.” Did any of Beriah’s children (fourth generation) return to Canaan? Please note verse 24 and his fourth-generation daughter “Sheerah, who built lower and upper Beth-horon, also, Uzzen-sherrah.” Beth-horon and Uzzen-sherrah are in the land of Canaan. For your consideration, Holmes |
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20 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | Holmes | 229202 | ||
Hi CDBJ, That would be wishful thinking. Holmes |
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