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Results from: Notes Author: Dachande Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99089 | ||
Oh I might have But I'm not so tired any more Joe |
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2 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99088 | ||
It was long, I'm recovering, not so tired... but all in all, good trip Joe |
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3 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99023 | ||
Just got back from Seattle... That was long... two days... 1,300 miles round trip... I'm dead... Joe |
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4 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99022 | ||
Oh yeah, my Dad's been a baker for 30 plus years... Joe |
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5 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99021 | ||
"Other than apostate Mormons and "anti's" like me, hell (the "outer darkness") is pretty empty." I believe you were miss informed... Not necisarrily "Apostate" Mormons... if someone never had a true testimony, they would not be held in the same reguard, and as far as "Anti's"... unless you're so Anti as to go out and murder on behalf of this, that is not the case... only those who would classify as the "Son of Perdition" would go to outer darkness... Anti Mormons are not the osn of perdition... Joe |
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6 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 99020 | ||
I never said YOU hate them, but genereally speaking, many people do... I'm sorry if I implied such Joe |
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7 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98838 | ||
Right now I am Tim, I work graveyard... and I have to drive 750 miles to Seatle so I might be back tomorrow... Joe |
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8 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98823 | ||
Joe you make a good point. What I was trying to get to is this, the LDS understanding of Salvation is much greater than the general Christian understanding... And to get into what the general Christian world view of Heaven by LDS terms, is to have have faith. So when talking about an equally worth of a destination the LDS and the general Christians all agree... Faith alone will get you there... But the LDS Church believes in Exaltation, which is what they generically call Salvation... See my point on understnading each others terminology? We may use the same words as another, but the meanings can be very diferent... It's like American English and British English, for the most part we can understand each other, but I'd be lost in some areas unless I learned their terminology... Joe |
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9 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98822 | ||
Justme, You are an outstanding individual in your friendship and the respct you show. I respect that greatly of you, it is import to balance the importance of things I am not defending the LDS Church on shared views on certain issues, but since I know much about them, I will defend the misunderstanding that floats around, as I would defend any Church which is falsly represented. Which is why I wish to learn about many Churches, since I feel many are misunderstood, the LDS Church just stands in a spot light of being attacked and is a much larger sourse and known sourse to investigate why people hate them... And I am willing to walk away f5om this subject in humility as well with a high respect for your aproach to all of our converses And I do pray nightly and reread many things... and I hope we may talk again some time, but under this form is not necessary... Thank you for the discussion and Preace to you as well, Joe |
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10 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98820 | ||
I'm not trying to convince any one, I am learning for myself... And to humanly contimplate the understanding of an Eternal Beginning is impossible, which they recognize... so I don't see to much of a problem... And why are we on the Mormons again? Joe |
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11 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98819 | ||
Tim, good information... I do have a response... here goes... "a) That there is only one God, period! b) That the Father is God. c) That Jesus is God. d) That the Holy Spirit is God. e) That these three are distinct Persons." Maybe every Protostent I have talked to has just been wrong about the Trinity and your explination is correct... I do not know exactly... But if there is one God, and three personages... then that would make God a shared Title rather than singular person of power, am I correct? And If I remember right, if Colossians is a letter to combat false doctrine then, how can it be proven that this false doctrine isn't being practiced today and a Modern Day Apostle isn't needed to relate to them? The same doctrine was set before that letter was written... It is now your turn :) Joe |
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12 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98818 | ||
Not to cintinue a debate over Mormons, but they believe they have 15 living Apostles, the Prophet and his two coucinlers are also sustained as Apostles, and the Apostles are sustained as Prophets... so you see, they have 15, each holding the authority of both, so they do not place the Prophet over the Apostles... it's a simple understanding of structure... I'm curious abou the exact Cathlic structure, any good places to read on it? Joe |
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13 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98817 | ||
Ok you just made no sense in this... "Because Christ and the Father are NOT the same. You misunderstand the church's doctrine of the Trinity. The Father is God; the Son is God; but the Father is not the Son." The doctrine of the Trinity teaches they are 3 in 1, and 1 in 3, amking all 3 the same being I understand the doctrine of the Trinity, there is no need in trying to explain it, since I understand it is my confussion You said "The Father is God, the Son is God; but the Father is not the Son." If the Father is, and the Son is God, and there is but one God, and they not the same, then what you're statement is saying is that there is one Title of God How ever the Trinity does teach that the Father is the Son and also the Ghost, stating that they are all each other... this is contrary to what you just said... And Why back on the Mormons? Did I not say to leave them out of this? Joe |
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14 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98721 | ||
The Hebrew was not so from Mormons, but a correction is note worthy and no problem to take, thank you... You're not seeing what I'm saying though... remember, this is not a debate over Mormon doctrine... so lets leave them alone and focus soley on the Bible... There are many passages that state there is only one God yes... but where in the Bible does it state this is the "Trinity" and the Godhead is no where explained as that of the "Trinity" in the Nicene Creed... that is the problem with the doctrine, yes, the creeds states it and gives a detailed definition, but the Bible does not teach the doctine of the Trinity, the creeds do... do you see my delema? I base my beliefs on the Bible, and the Trinity is not in the Bible, so how can it be upheld as concrete? Explain the Apostle Steven's vision then... And back to the origanal topic... Since when in the Bible was it taught that there are to be no more Apostles or Prophets, it doesn't... When doctrines are set out to be the absolute, how can they be when they are not in Bible? I know you will quote those same verses, but then I quote Acts 7:55-56... but if the Bible does not contradict itself, how can Christ stand on the right hand of the Father if they are the same... "Being" Or Christs prayer in John 17, where He prays that we may be one in Him, as He is one in the Father, that we all might be one with the Father... or John 20:17 where Christ ackowledges sebing subject to the Father, "...To my God, and your God." This argument can be faught til we're both blue in the face with supporting scripture for each side, which I'm not trying to do... So if we can do this, why should we not have Apostles and Prophets to settle these petty doctrinal issues? As far as I've read, God doesn't like confusion, which is why He had Prophets and Apostles Am I making any logical sense? Joe |
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15 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98681 | ||
Justme, thank you for the references... I have actually seen most of these on my own before, but what confuses me is that some of the bold statements made, saying they don't believe Christ is the Redeemer and was resurected, is not supported by any of these writtings, they all support the Redeemer and Resurection... I think the funniest thing is when I try and explain my job, I'm a Combat Engineer in the US Army, to a civilian who has no understanding of the Military Languague... I compare this to that of the religions of the world... especially the LDS Church... if I've never been explained to, their definition of a certain word, I would assume that they are flangelant and completely wrong... What does this phrase mean to you...? "I'm an E-1, before I can be promoted I need X amount of P-Points, X amount of time in service, I must attend PLDC, pass my APFT, go through and intview at a battalion promotion board, and be slotted in my Company for promotion, and be recomended by my chain of command." Sure, you may understand some of these, like Promotion, Interview, Recomended... but what is an APFT? or PLDC? and P-Points? if you've never learned about the Army you cannot understand what this means... I feel the same is to religious members to people not in their sect/denomination/cult what ever you so may place on them... The Mormon definition of Salvation is equal the Army definition of a Promotion... now as a Private E-1 it is Impossible to be promoted from a Private... Promotions take place when you become a Non Commissioned Office, NCO, you may become a Speacialist, E-4, but that is an Advancement, not a promotion, it takes all the same aspects of a Promotion but teachnically is not and does not have all of the same expectations and responcibilities Now, my point, the Mormon definition of Salvation is equal to what the rest of the world calls Sanctification... and every church I've studied believes Sanctification can only be obtained through their Church... so where are the Mormons so wrong in their understanding of salvation? They are not, everyone else is either in the Navy, Marines, AirForce, or are civilians and just doesn't completely understand their Lingo which is a cause for many of these type of accusations... Justme, I do not understand your point of these referances since what I read in the Bible is not compromised by these quotes... please explain... I eargerly await your reply, Joe |
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16 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98679 | ||
The Mormon view of plurality od Gods is not misquued... since the Lord God ackowledged the pluralty of "Gods" and the devil as well. And if God is the author of Truth and the devil the author of Lies, where is the medium to say the devil does not say there are more than one in Godhood..? If you agree saying he is a liar on that, than you are saying the Lord God is a liar on that... the Bible says it And the Mormons are not the only one's be not believe the "Tirnity"... the Unitarians believed years before and seperated in Europe before coming to America... A founder of the Unitarians said that the "Trinity" has no Biblical support and is a creed of men and incorrect... This is the one doctrine they have kept over their transition into one of the most liberal Churches today... To put into understanding of the Mormon beliefs of God being created, I cannot fully explain... BUT... I can however explain the understanding of the same, yesterday, today, and forever... In simple terms, we as humans are 4th dimension beings... we follow the simple mathematical ploting of the X, Y, and Z quordince to create 3 dimension... the 4th however is Time, something that we cannot manipulate... God however is not bound to our 4 dimensions and controls all aspect of it, which would make God, extra dimensional and if God is extra dimensional our concept of Eternity is limited to the dimensional though God has limited us to here in this life... but if God has extra dimensional thought, He must, "Dumb down" so to say, His explination to us so that we might be able to understand it... It'd be like trying to shove a Football into a Golf Hole, a tiny bit will poke in, but it wont fit, so you must use the proper ball that will... the Golf Ball... So there in... short... are explinations of why someone is inclined to believe otherwise... you must educate yourself and study the Bible... and if they contradict the Bible, they must be set aside... I have yet to find the Mormons in contradiction to the BIBLE, the creeds of men, absolutely! But there are other Churches who teach from the Bible(and against creeds!) and for their interpretations are not wrong, I am in course of finding and studying them as well... Joe |
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17 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98678 | ||
EdB, interesting... From these statements they are, to your understanding, the truthfullness of what Mormons believe... and I am someone who is seaking the fullness of truth as the Bible directs it... I am rather learned in the Mormon understanding of their religion, beacuase I ask them... Justme brought up some doctrine views... so I asked them, and they corrected the errors in understanding... Your post I have also inquired, now keep in mind, I am studying many religions abroad and do not rely one one single members understanding of their doctrine... and from my own learning, I have learned that not all things preached can be understood by our translations... I'll touch first of the word "Eloheim" The word "Eloheim" is derived form the word "Eloi", meaning God. And by adding the word "heim", it renders it Gods. So it is hard to take everything said about another as truth... if you translate the Hebrew into English with an understanding of the Hebrew definition, things change... which is why I will question every religion preaching from the Bible... To mearly say earth got messed up and the Father had to fix it goes against everything they believe... I've heard the "Plan of Salvation" quite a few times... which in short states... this is my rendition, but is completely acreate to their beliefs, how do I know... I simply asked... "Before the world existed we lived in the Heavenly Courts above with our Heavenly Father, and He saw fit that we should take up bodies and become exalted, even as He, that we might have the fullness of joy that our Father has. "Our Heavenly Father called a council in Heaven to determine the plan in which we would inhearit our bodies and salvation. And two arose and spoke saying 'Send me', for one was Heavenly Fathers First Begotten in the Spirit and the other was the Son of the Morning. And the First Begotten said, 'Father send me, and let the glory be thine' and the Son of the Morning said, 'Father send me, and not one soul will be lost, and give me thine glory' "The Father in His infinate wisdom chose the first and chastised the second, and the second became angry and pursuaded many to follow him, and he was cast out of the presence of the Father and became the devil, and his followers his angels, never to be born into the Fathers plan, for they were the Sons of Perdition." Now, to compare what I've said do not ask self proclaimed experts, for obviously they are not, but ask many diferant Mormons, they will kindly answer any questions... they will say I am correct... Now how does that correct the errors of your understanding... First, you do have some truths, but to say earth got messed up undermines their whole religion and God in His infinate wisdom... if God knows all things, so He will establish a means prior to, to insure His desires are met... This is equal to the Mormon belief... And the 1/3 host of Heaven being the blacks, is not true... if the 1/3 host of Heaven cannot be born into the plan how can they be the blacks who were and still being born? Also, the Doctrine of becoming God, as I've read is also slightly missunderstood... I'll define... they teach to like Christ, perfect, as God who is perfect... Now, if they teach we are commanded to be Perfect like God, to be perfect, one must posses the same attributes, knowledge, and capabilites/powers to be Perfect... thus to be perfect like God you must posses His charactoristics... His Godly charactoristics... They teach He is still God The Father and there is no greater... but since He is God and perfect, we must be perfect, thus being God's... To obtain the status of Godhood is not necassarily to God... and Genesis does acknowledge the plurality of "Gods" Gen1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness... etc..." Gen3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as GODS(plural), knowing good and evil." Gen3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as ONE(singular) of US(plural), to know good and evil... etc..." |
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18 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98535 | ||
I do take all information into heart from outside sources, but I then ask the source dirrectly... As you can see, some where in the history of teaching about the Mormons, you were given flawed information... by either someone who didn't know better, didn't care about the truth, or someone who whole heartedly wanted to warp your view as well as my view... I do believe the Mormons are a good example of a people who are commonly misrepresented... but they are not the only ones and do not get sole credit... I have a close friend who is Cathlic, he questions many aspects of his Church soley based on the Bible and his readings, he checks many translations to determine the "Average" of what the Bible is saying... his newest venture is the subject of the "Trinity", he told me, "There is no Biblical support for it, or against it." He refures back the the Nicene Creed and other such historical times... I also have a good friend who goes to a Bethal Church, she's been there 15 years and told me, "The what what?" when I asked her views of the "Trinity", I then explained the 3 in 1, and 1 in 3... she replied, "No, they're sepperate and that doesn't make any sense." I am not now questioning a doctrine which many have believe for many years and continue to believe... but my point is how many "Christians" truly believe the very own doctrine of the Church they attend? I would reffer back to Christ saying, "Those who do not believe shall be damned." If some teachings have no Biblical support or condemnation, and they defy logic. How are we as men supposed to learn the Divinity of Doctrine? Aswell, Gene Robinson, you quoted him... "Just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the church and Scriptures does not necessarily make it wrong." No I will disect this mans statement and give you his "Truth" and "Lie"... "Just simply to say that it goes against tradition and the teaching of the church..." He has a very valid point when making this statement, since there are so many traditions and teachings that change from Church to Church, who's to say he is incorrect in the part of his statement, he is not... But... "...and Scriptures does not necessarily make it wrong." Here he is absolutly incorrect, the Scriptures are the word of God and his law, to go against God's law is a sin, and sin is wrong... He ultimatly shows that he is wise to the ways of the world, but ignorant in the ways of the Lord... I also believe the people who voted this, openly defiant to God, man as a Bishop will share his judgement... and I find there are many people this way when I ask them, some pastors, some congregations, some invididuals... which is why religion is not a hard thing to believe, but to FIND I feel I must be Baptized into a Church, there is no other way of salvation, to simple say I believe is not enough for me, Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark was quoting the Savior, so I am quoting the Savior... I note that many will say baptism is not necessary, but Jesus said, "Believe and be baptized." John 3:5 "...Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." this testifies further to me that I must be baptized... but I cannot accept a sectarian baptism... "There is one Church, one Baptism, and one God." I do not remember the refferance... if there is one Church, than only that one Church has proper authority to give the one Baptism, under the dirrection of the one God... This is another subject I cannot defy, the Bible says so, and I believe the Bible More insight from your understaning is always appriciated, Joe |
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19 | Apostles, Prophets? An Office for Today? | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98533 | ||
Justme, thank you the insight You are correct about being side tracked by ANTI statements, and I do not believe you are making ANTI Mormon statements, but just to touch upon some of the Mormon beliefs that I have researched into... I do not say I am an expert of the Mormon doctrine, and I do not make false accusations of your knowledge... just that it is somewhat flawed... I will touch lightly on the topics of which you spoke... The Jesus/Lucifer brother theory is derived from God the Father being the Father of all, and Lucifer was a fallen angel, and Christ the Son of God... so inefect there is case for argument, and the idea would make us ALL brothers and sisters to not only Christ, but the devil as well... when I have asked about this they have replied, "Yes that would be correct." I've never even heard of Joseph Smith being the redeemer, from any Mormon, it has always been "Christ is my redeemer.", Joseph Smith is how ever held in hgih reguard as a prophet, but no more than we would esteme Peter, James, or John... From my understanding, one thing that sets aside the LDS Church as a cult is their unacceptance of the "Trinity" That in, they believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 3 seperate persons who are eternally bound in one purpose... That the Father has a body flesh, and the Son has a body of flesh, but the Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh... if they believe the Son has a body of flesh, he obviously took his body up again in the ressurection... As far as Mary, they have never told me anything other wise than she being a virgin... Every Mormon I've talked to seems very saddened when I bring up that I've heard they don't believe the Bible... their responce, "The Bible IS the word of the living God, we have the Old Testament, and the New Testament." and then I ask about the Book of Mormon... their responce, "The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, and a man can be brought closer to God by reading it more than any other book, but it is the Book of Mormon, not the Bible, and we do use the Bible." They would normally go on to explain that the Book of Mormon is not to be added into the Bible as a book, but that it is in its own, Another Testament of Jesus Christ... The case of the Book of Mormon changing and being written by Joseph Smith... this I do not know for a surity and will claim nothing... other than they blieve it was Translated by an ancient record which was later taken up into Heaven for preservation... Note, to all whom may read this, please to not turn this into a stomping grounds on the Mormon Church and their doctrine, this is a conversation between Justme and myself, if you wish to inclut your opinions, please feel free, but this is not a debate over Mormonism... Justme, you do have key questions that I will continue to ask... My point in stating these things I know about the LDS Church are to explain my reasoning for avoiding any anti material, but also, being skeptical in asking those not of a certain religion about a certain religion... Too long again... Continued... |
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20 | Only 144,000 virgins in heaven? | Revelation | Dachande | 98491 | ||
Might I make a correction to your post. I have delt with many religious sects and have many friends of a different faith, quite a few of them are Mormon, and they do not believe Heaven only has room for 144,000 If you choose to make statements about another religion, please educate yourself before hand |
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