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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 209551 | ||
Dear Brother Jeff, You asked, "I don't think they were different; do you think they were different?" :-) It reminds me of an anecdote: George Whitfield, it is said, was walking along the docks in Boston Harbor. A drunken sailor approached him and said, "George! Do you remember me? You saved me four years ago!" The venerable evangelist replied, "I must have saved you. Had you been saved by Christ, you would not now be drunk." Don't get frustrated. These truths are important. If it weren't so, the Lord wouldn't have called us to be judges of the world and of ourselves. Within our own SBC tradition, Tom Nettles addresses these issues much more ably than do I: http://www.founders.org/journal/fj06/article3.html Perhaps if you read that article it will help you understand. In Him, Doc |
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2 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | jlhetrick | 209615 | ||
Doc- yes, I asked "do you think they were different?" Thanks for sharing the anecdote, but, would you answer the question please? So it's easier to follow here is what you asked.. "How do you think those folks who ONCE WERE practicing drunkenness, adultery, deception, thievery, sorcery, and idolatry differed in behavior from the lost guys that ARE NOW practicing drunkenness, adultery, deception, thievery, sorcery, and idolatry? :-)" My answer was of course no. When someone who ONCE practiced a particular sin practiced it, his behavior did not differ from the one who NOW practices it. They were both practicing the same sin. Had you asked if the behavior differs NOW, for the one who ONCE practiced it (referring to the saved) then the answer would be yes. Their behavior is different. The unsaved is continuing in sin while the saved is no longer continuing in the sin. If I sound thouroughly confused at this point perhapse I am. I'm not sure why you asked the question and not sure why you didn't answer my question in response. I appreciate the link and will follow up with it later... for now I have a long list of honey-doe's that starts with the garage and ends somewhere in the back yard. Jeff |
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3 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 209644 | ||
Dear Brother Jeff, You asked, "I don't think they were different; do you think they were different?" (post #209514) and "...would you answer the question please?" (post #209615). Quoting Paul again: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV) They differ in ownership, forgiveness, purity, and divine judicial standing. All of those things have external manifestations. However, in the narrow context of this discussion, we are talking about their visible behavior. The saved person differs from the sexually immoral by living in sexual purity. The saved person differs from idolaters by worshiping and serving the One True God. The saved person differs from thieves by carefully and thoughtfully protecting rightful ownership. The saved person differs from adulterers by diligently maintaining the sanctity of marriage. The saved person differs from people who practice homosexuality by offering up their body unto the Lord as a living sacrifice. The saved person differs from the greedy by being content with God's provision. The saved person differs from drunkards by sober living. The saved person differs from revilers by loving and ministering grace to others. The saved person differs from the swindler by being honest and fair in his business dealings. In other words, the saved person stops committing the sins of sexual immorality, idolatry, thievery, adultery, practicing homosexuality, greed, drunkenness, reviling, swindlers. Saved people having ceased these activities is visible evidence of their redemption. Lost people continue these activities as evidence of their lack of redemption. You wrote, "Had you asked if the behavior differs NOW, for the one who ONCE practiced it (referring to the saved) then the answer would be yes. Their behavior is different. The unsaved is continuing in sin while the saved is no longer continuing in the sin." Which is exactly what I've been saying. If we tell the unsaved who is continuing in their sin that it is possible that they are now saved, then we have given them false assurance. We have judged according to Biblical standards. Your choice of words to this point could have been used by the lost to justify their continued lifestyles. I knew that isn't what you meant. We work together to be good stewards of God's truth, allowing no corrupt communication to arise from our keyboards, but such that edifies the reader. In Him, Doc |
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4 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | Val | 209650 | ||
Doc, I don't believe Jeff ever said in his post that a homosexual could remain in his sins (lifestyle) if he got saved. I think that is why this thread is so confusing. I took from his point and I quote him "Recognizing false teaching (and that by the fruit) and judging the eternal state of another is two very different things." I agree with him on this point because as the scriptures say man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. Thus, God is the only judge who can give a right judgment. When we take that upon ourselves we do an injustice to God putting ourselves on His level. Only God can judge the eternal state of a person. We do not have that divine power and insight. We can think we know where a specific person will go but we are told to witness and warn not give a final judgment which we cannot do anyway because we are looking at the outward appearance not at the heart. Blessings - Val |
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5 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 209678 | ||
Dear Val, By Brother Jeff's admission he was attempting to avoid being judgmental (post #209614). There is a great distinction between being judgmental and being discerning. We are told to eschew the former (Matthew 7:1-5; Luke 6:37; James 4:11-12), but we are commanded to exercise the latter. Your exegesis states that Matthew 7:16-27 is only about false teachers because of verse 15. Let us do a brief exegesis of Matthew 7, as it forms the basis of much of our discussion. Look at the whole passage. Who is Christ speaking to? Matthew 5:1-2, the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, states that He was teaching His disciples. Sure, there was a bunch of people listening in (5:1; 7:28). However, this teaching was meant for the apostles, for these things formed the foundation of the church. Was Christ speaking only about false teachers in vv7:1-5? How about the dogs and pigs of verse 6? (How are we to avoid giving that which is holy to dogs and pigs if we are not to judge that some men are dogs and some are pigs?) Nevertheless, Christ speaks of his magnanimity and generosity in v7-12. We must avoid giving holy things to dogs and pigs, nevertheless we must give holy things unto those who seriously seek them out. How do we tell the difference without discernment? Then Christ makes an incredible statement about the wide gate and the narrow gate. Do you think He is only talking about the world wandering off through the wide gate and the church making its way through the narrow gate? I know that many teach it that way. But to whom is Christ speaking? He is speaking to the church -- which is full of both wheat and tares. Wheat and tares look a whole lot alike. Then Christ warns of false teachers. Why would He suddenly make that shift? Because the false teachers are the ones leading the way through the broad gate. Tares love to draw false teachers to themselves (2 Timothy 4:3). Why? Because the message these fleshly people want to hear, simply springs out of the nature of their own hearts (Galatians 5:20). So how can we tell the false teachers and their tares from the wheat? We know that those of the narrow way produce much fruit (John 15:5;Luke 8:8). Here in Matthew 7:16-20 we are told that those of the wide gate and those of the narrow gate are intrinsically different, right down to their basic nature. Any given kind of fruit only springs from a specific kind of plant. (I never have understood why this is so clear to everyone when it comes to figs and thistles, but is so easily rejected when it comes to people.) Now Christ tells us that "not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord'" will be saved. Clearly this is not just talking about false prophets. No, indeed. Christ makes this quite clear when He says "Everyone who hears these words of Mine" (vv24, 26). He is talking about responses, the visible fruit arising as a response to the Word. Take a look at all the various passages that speak of fruit. Fruit is always visible. It is a metaphor used in the Old Testament as well as the New. In Him, Doc |
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