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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 209129 | ||
Hi, Brother Jeff... You wrote, "It's not our place to ever tell someone their going to Hell..." (sic) I don't mean to be contrary, but I certainly think it is our place to recognize that someone is not saved. Continuing with your quote from Matthew 7, Christ said to us, "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:16-21 ESV) We must never, ever render assurance where the Scripture does not give it. The diseased tree CANNOT bear healthy fruit and the healthy tree CANNOT bear diseased fruit. The internal state of a man is not visible, but his character is visible! It is far, far better for a man to have doubt and be saved than for a man to be assured and be lost. In Him, Doc |
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2 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | jlhetrick | 209132 | ||
Doc- thanks for the response brother. Not sure though, what you meant by never rendering assurance as it applies to my post; if you would clarify please. Thank you for offering further context to my reference. Let's back the context up in the other direction so that we gain even further understanding. Matthew 7:1-2 (ESV) 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Is Christ contradicting Himself when shortly after he offers the warning of false profits? The question is rhetorical of course. We know He was not. Recognizing false teaching (and that by the fruit) and judging the eternal state of another is two very different things. The immediate context seems to make that clear. So that we don't miss the essence of the question (and of my response to tyboswell) the focus here was/is on how to witness to someone in sin (in this case, homosexuality). To jump to equating the homosexual sinner with a false prophet (the context of your bible passage refernce) doesn't appear an accurate position to take. Let us never forget that the grace of God is capable of delivering every person from a lifestyle of sin, even the homosexual. I was no better in mine than the homosexual is in his or hers. Lord forgive me if I ever think it’s mine to look upon another and judge his eternity. I liken that to David's own concern in Psalm 19:13. Tyboswell, if your reading along…. Sorry for straying from the focus of your question. We tend to do that when parts of posts seem to require attention or clarification. It’s part of the process. God bless, Jeff |
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3 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | peacebestill | 209144 | ||
Jeff I am a litte concerned... When one presents the gospel there are certain vital elements that cannnot really be left out if we are to give the message straight. I am not making an assumption here that you do not do what I am about to say, but it seems as if you would prefer not to tell a sinner that they are on their way to hell... I would think that the first element of a presentation of the gospel would be the need for salvation - people are sinners they should be told they are sinners. The next elememt would be how God feels about sin. God plans to punish all sinners with a terrible judgment and wrath. If they do not get saved they will most certainly go to hell. And we do know for certain that unbelievers as long as they remain so are definitely going to hell. So how in the world do you avoid that part of the message? If you say to someone you are a sinner without telling them the consequences, don't you think that you do them a diservice? The next element would be the message of salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Jesus says in John 3:14-21 that when people hear the word of the gospel and do not believe in Him to eternal life, they have been judged already. Our job is to give people the gospel and let the Holy Spirit do His work to convict them of sin to repentance, or to shut them up under unbelief unto eternal damnation because they reject Jesus. We are just messengers, but if we do not get the message straight and have the fortitude to give it straight how are we doing our jobs for Jesus? Hell is part and parcel of the message and we do know that the Bible says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. How can we truly say we do not know who is going to hell? I think there are some clear Biblical instances where we do. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10. peacebestill |
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4 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | jlhetrick | 209163 | ||
Peacebestill- Sorry for the delay... at work and just getting to my lunch break. Sorry for your concern. The problem may be in your reading into the posts, not reading all of the post(s), not keeping context in mind or any combination of these. A reread of my posts should, hopefully, relieve your concern. You wrote: “When one presents the gospel there are certain vital elements that cannot really be left out if we are to give the message straight.” In my response to Tyboswell I wrote: “If you have the opportunity to talk to any person regarding his/her particular lifestyle, the best way to do that is with the Word of God. Straight and to the point should be the rule. Otherwise we might end up thinking we can somehow present it in a way (our own way) that is somehow "more effective" So I clearly took the position that NO elements should be left out; rather than “certain” elements should be included. I went on to point out that: “Contrary to a lot of approaches out there today, there is simply no better counsel than the Word of God. No method of presentation is going to improve on it. Pertaining to me you wrote: “it seems as if you would prefer not to tell a sinner that they are on their way to hell...” This seems to be the first time in the thread this has come up. Not quite sure what you mean by “on their way to hell” but my response was that it is not our place to say they are GOING to Hell. Please consider my response to Doc again. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says: For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (ESV) Romans 5:8 says: But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Who does the “us” in Romans 5:8 refer too? Is there a particular sin that is beyond Christ’s redemption? Is homosexual behavior? You wrote: “God plans to punish all sinners with a terrible judgment and wrath.” Well… no… God has and is saving some. By His grace he calls some out of sin saving us through faith in Jesus Christ. (Eph 2:5, 8). We don’t “get saved” but rather, God saves us but I'm assuming here that you meant that those that He does not save will die eternally separated from God. I’m afraid that we too often pick and choose sins (homosexuality, murder, etc.) and judge the involved person as lost. Thankfully, and as I’m trying to point out in this thread, the call is not ours. There will be homosexuals who spend eternity separated from God. There will homosexuals who are called out of their sin, touched by the mercy and grace of God as they receive the faith to believe and receive that most miraculous gift in Christ. As for your reference to 1Corinthians 9-10 I’m afraid therein may be the problem. As you so rightly argue, the WHOLE message is what’s important. Please refer to verse 11. Stopping short at verse 10 neglects the gospel message. Hope this is helpful and God bless, Jeff |
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5 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | peacebestill | 209196 | ||
Jeff I was responding to this which you originally said; It's not our place to ever tell someone their going to Hell... we don't know that. If you have the opportunity to talk to any person regarding his/her particular lifestyle, the best way to do that is with the Word of God. Straight and to the point should be the rule. Otherwise we might end up thinking we can some how present it in a way (our own way) that is somehow "more effective". My point to you was that ALL SINNERS INCLUDING homosexuals are indeed going to hell because they are not saved and how can we avoid telling them that they sinners are going to hell, which naturally includes and applies directly to them at the time? My point to you was not that we go up to homosexuals in a conversation and say you are gay you are going to hell. But it was in having a converstation with a homosexual about sin and salvation, telling them that any sinner, they as a sinner need salvation because they are sinners, whatever that sin or sins are, and that the consequence if they do not is eternal hell? I was following the context but missed how your point in saying the WHOLE message needs to be preached because NOT TELLING A SINNER THEY ARE GOING TO HELL is the antithesis of the gospel message BECAUSE SINNERS WHO DO NOT REPENT ARE GOING TO HELL. Obviously saved sinners are not that was moot was it not?! I did not miss 1 Corinthians 6:11, I was making a point that 1 Corinthias 6:10 applies to unsaved homsexuals going to hell for sure! Now, that being said, I do not believe that homosexuality is the ULTRA sin of all sins, there are many lists of sins in the Bible and none is meant to be exhaustive... But to stand there with a homosexual who really is addressing the issue from their end and claiming they can continue on in that sin and not telling them they will go to hell after discussing why salvation, how salvation would be dead wrong. Romans 1:32 And although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do those the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. peacebestill |
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6 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | jlhetrick | 209248 | ||
You wrote: "BECAUSE SINNERS WHO DO NOT REPENT ARE GOING TO HELL" I'll point to "WHO DO NOT REPENT" and ask you to couple that with the rest of what I have written in the thread. If your not able to get it from that then I'm afraid I don't have anything more to offer. Good luck with this, Jeff |
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7 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | peacebestill | 209293 | ||
Jeff I mean you no disrespect here... I think we actually do believe the exact same thing, but that I got the misimpression at first that we did not. So I apologize if you feel like I do not understand you, I think I do and that we both agree that all the elements have to be presented to the homosexual of the gospel. And I agree with you that one cannot just beat sinners over the head with sin and hell and leave out the rest of the message. I hope you can see I am really not interested in arguing, but in coming to a common ground of understanding. And seeing as how we both actually believe the same thing I too have no more to offer. Have a blessed Lord's day. Ephesians 4:3 Being dilegent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. peacebestill |
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8 | how can we minister to homosexuals | Bible general Archive 4 | jlhetrick | 209295 | ||
Blessed day to you also! | ||||||