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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | BradK | 224484 | ||
Hello findrichard, I don't wish to argue JW theology with you either:-) However, I find it disconcerting that you so willingly embrace their heretical and false views! Jesus is either God or He's not! the "Diety" of Christ is clearly taught in scripture itself (John 1:1, Col. 1:15, 2:9, Phil. 2:5-8, etc) The plain and indisputable fact about the Watchtower Organization is this: They deny The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. (cf Council of Nicea 325AD) If Christ is not God, He could not and cannot be our Savior. That is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith! (John 17:3) As far as their interpretation and knowledge of the Greek language and grammar, etc, I hardly find it necessary to comment! They have no qualifications to make such assertions. There is no crying shame is dis-associating oneself from false teachers and heresy (Matt. 7:15-23) The JW's are not Christian in their beliefs no matter how much spin you want to put on it! They are a cult and as such we are told to, "be aware of false prophets...", not "build unity in faith" with them! Finally, we are called to discern truth from error. Eph 4:14 says, "As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;" (NASB) Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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2 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | findrichard | 224508 | ||
Brad, To quote the FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD THE PROFESSION OF FAITH OF THE 318 FATHERS We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia] of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made [Gr. poethenta, Lat. factum], CONSUBSTANTIAL [Gr. homoousion, Lat. unius substantiae (quod Graeci dicunt homousion)] with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit. And those who say "there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that he came to be from things that were not, or from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia], affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises. Not all of this is real clear to me but not scripture either. Take a look at this inventory of scripture. It is too numerous for me to post here, but is a very thorough account on the Trinity. http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-02.htm? I am still reading through it myself. Richard |
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3 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | kathysims18 | 224599 | ||
Hi Richard, I think you make some very good points and I just joined this forum and noticed the following rule that we agreed to follow, it says: You must abide by the following rules in connection with your use of the Forums: * Postings must be Biblically based and not opposing the Bible's sole authority (sola Scriptura), Christianity, or the deity of Jesus Christ. So, if "deity of Jesus" is here understood as being Jesus as the "Almighty God", then rule number one would be broken if we post otherwise. But if "deity of Jesus" means what Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon says, ""the Greek word "thei o tes" means “divine nature, divinity.”" (P. 788) then there is a basis for rendering "thei o tes" as referring to the quality of being a god (mighty one, Gr. theos), not the person of Almighty God. The Bible shows us at John 5:18, Revised Standard: “This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was trying to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While referring to God as his Father, was Jesus claiming equality with Almighty God? Well, what he next says to the Jews might make that clear, he says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19) It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbeth, but they were wrong also about that. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he said: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.” Jehovah's Witnesses certainly believe in the deity of Jesus Christ just as Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon defines it because of what Jesus himself next says in verse 19 of John chapter 5; "... Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing." I hope we all are blessed by God for "searching" his Word for truth and that includes you Richard. |
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4 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | BradK | 224601 | ||
Hello Kathy, The Deity of Jesus Christ would mean that he is co-equal with God, the second Person of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man- God incarnate! How then would we understand John 1:3, " all things were made through him...", and Col. 1:16, "For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth...". these are clearly references to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of John 1:1. The issue of His Deity was debated and decided at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD! The view of the Watchtower Organization is not new, but merely embraces Arianism. As a note: If "thei o tes" is referring to the quality of being a god, then you embrace polytheism! How many gods are there? Speaking the Truth In Love, BradK |
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5 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 224602 | ||
Bradk, I agree with everything you said but one single point. Nouns in greek can be one of three stripes when it is not accompanied by the article. These are indefinite, definite, or qualitative. Definite is when even though the article is not present it still has the force of a singular thing. For example when you see the word Paul without the article you don't translate it as "a Paul." Indefinite is when you see the word book and you do infact translate it as "a book." Qualitative is when you make a statement about the thing itself. Now the way that phrase in John 1, "and the Word was God" is a contruction where overwhelmingly the second noun is a qualitative noun when we see that construct in greek. So what this means is that almost certainly what John is trying to say is that this word is qualitatively God. However, to take this to mean that the Word was just a god is dead wrong. That is missing the point of how John is using Theos completely. The idea of Theos here is not just a divine being. It is essentially what God the Father is. What John is saying is that there was God the Father and this Word was with Him from all eternity; and exactly what God the Father was, so also this Word was too. This "Word" was of essence the very same thing as God in every way. The phrase does not mean "the quality of being a God" it rather means "the quality of being the very same thing as the very God the Father being referred to in the verse." So I believe it is qualitative, but at the same time it fits perfectly with our trinitarian understanding of God. Isn't this what we teach? Jesus was with God in the beginning, and of his very essence He was the exact same thing as God the Father. This passage thoroughly refutes any notion that Jesus Christ was a created being, or that there was any time prior to His existense. I'll say one other point. Whoever tries, upon the basis of Greek grammer, to deny that this "Word," Jesus Christ, is in fact the one true eternal God is so blind that I pity them. You do not need to know greek grammer to see this. Why do I say that? How can we conceive it any other way? Look at what John is doing here. He takes a phrase that is so burned into the very fiber and soul of every Jewish man that it is a phrase undeniably reserved for Yahweh(Jehovah) alone and gives it to Jesus Christ. Genesis1:1 In the beggining God... John1:1 In the beggining was the Word... Is there any question that this was intentionally done by John here? This great being that was eternal and The One who created everything, this majestic God of creation is in fact our Lord Jesus Christ! To deny that Jesus is so is clear evidence false teaching. In Christ, Beja |
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6 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | stjohn | 224603 | ||
Bega and all, here is something I'd like to add to this thread that I believe is quite pertinent. I believe it was originally posted by Pastor Tim. --" Keeping in mind that the original manuscripts of the New Testament are written in Greek. One of the rules of Greek grammar, is that when two, proper and personal substantives, both of which are singular in number and in the same case, are connected by the Greek ‘kai’, then both of these substantives are in reference to the same person. Why is this important? Besides John 1:1 there are eight Christologically pregnant passages in the New Testament that conclusively state that Jesus Christ is, God. They are; Acts 20:28, Eph 5:5, Thess 1:12, 1 Tim 5:12, 2 Tim 4:1, Titus 2:13, 2 Pet 1:1, and Jude 1:4. Each of these passages, in accordance with this rule of Greek grammar, defiantly calls Jesus Christ – God!" John |
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7 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 224604 | ||
John, Slight correction. The rule is actually when you have an article followed by that construction. So it would be something like, "The coach and companion" or "The Lord and Savior" etc. However, in the examples given they are still good examples of the correct rule. So I agree whole heartedly just wanted to make sure it was being said correctly. In Christ, Beja |
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8 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | stjohn | 224631 | ||
Dear Pastor Beja, thanks for the correction and your desire to get it right. Not being a Greek expert and having gotten this info from pastor Tim, (our resident Greek expert) I wouldn't know which of the two of you is correct. But since the final outcome is that the text and grammar shows Christ's Divinity, then it's all good to me!:-) John |
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9 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | Morant61 | 224653 | ||
Greetings John! Pastor Beja is correct! I should have added the following phrase to my post: "When the first noun has the article, while the second does not." But, as you pointed out, the meaning of the post is not changed as each example follows this rule. Thanks! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | Proverbs 3:5 | Bible general Archive 4 | stjohn | 224700 | ||
Thank you, Pastor Tim! John |
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