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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | kalos | 165563 | ||
A visible, noisy, glorious event... ...not some secret catching away! Question: "2.Is the rapture going a secert one or everybody will know what has taken place? I need answers supported with scriptures." Answer: 'Paul gives us even more details of the rapture of the Church. The most famous rapture passage is in 1 Thessalonians 4: 'For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:15-17). 'Paul comforts the Thessalonian believers by telling them that the dead in Christ will be resurrected just before the translation of living believers. Christ will descend visibly with a shout, the archangel Michael will raise His voice, and the trumpet of God will be blown. This is a visible, noisy, glorious event, not some secret catching away!' (http://solagroup.org/articles/ endtimes/ep_0012.html) 'There are two serious problems with understanding the resurrection as a "spiritual" event. R.C. Sproul says, The first difficulty is that it [Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15] involves propositions and assertions that can be neither verified nor falsified empirically. ... if one announces or predicts things that will take place in the arena of real history involving physical reality, then empirical verification becomes relevant and crucial...It is unfortunate that the apostle failed to alert the Corinthians-and us, by extension-that he was speaking of a secret, hidden, spiritual resurrection. His language certainly suggests something else, particularly as Paul so clearly conjoins the resurrection of our bodies with the resurrection of Christ's body. The resurrected Christ is the firstfruits of all who will be raised. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 162) (www.solagroup.org/articles/ endtimes/et_0003.html) |
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2 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165572 | ||
Hi Kalos, If Paul was teaching that the rapture would be a "visible, noisy event", such that everyone would know for a certainty just what had happened, how is it that the Thessalonian church would not know whether or not our "our gathering to Him" had happened or not? "2 Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 Thess 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." This passage can only be in response to the false information given to the Thessalonians that Christ had already gathered His own, and the Day of the Lord had now begun. But if Paul taught that the rapture, this gathering, would be an "every eye shall see" type of event, they would know right away to reject such a teaching, wouldn't they? Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | Ocelot | 165579 | ||
Hi Mark. I agree with Kalos. The “Rapture”, will be a very loud, very visible event. Scripture plainly teaches that. Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and EVERY EYE will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Matt 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 2 Pet 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! As for 2 Thess. 2:1,2 "2 Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 Thess 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." I would say that these verses are an argument for the exact opposite of a SECRET rapture. Paul is warning the Christians not to believe in such a way. As for the “Thief in the Night”. The “Thief in the Night” verses all pertain to the unexpectedness of Christ’s return. He is however, a thief with a trumpet. And when He returns, the elements will melt. If you or I were left behind I think we’d notice that. As for who said what first about a “secret” rapture, it doesn’t seem to matter. The Bible says it’s not secret. Ocelot |
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4 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165580 | ||
Hi Ocelot, Rev 1:7 refers to Jesus' coming, but says nothing about the rapture. Matt 24:27 again, says nothing about the rapture. Matt 24:31 does mention a gathering, so I will look at that later. 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 again do not mention anything about the rapture. Paul makes a strong point to the Thessalonians to remember his teachings, 2 Th 2:5 "Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?" These opening verses of 2 Thess 2 do not address the manner in which the rapture comes, but simply whether or not it had come. Paul is not saying "don't worry, you'll know when it comes because no one will not notice that it has happened." This would have been an easy argument to make, however, Paul does not make it. What he does respond with is the sequence of events, saying "don't you remember what I told you?" So Paul is not emphasizing HOW the rapture happens, but WHEN the rapture happens. I am not saying whether or not the rapture is "secret", I am not aware of any passages of Scripture that actually address that question. Regarding the "gathering of the elect": Mat 24:29 “And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.” Mar 13:27 And then He will send His angels and will gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of earth to the end of heaven. These passages in Matthew and Mark are often mistaken to be describing the rapture of the church. The following passage possitively indentifies itself as pertaining to the church: 1Th 4:16 “Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” In the rapture, Jesus comes down from heaven, an archangel gives a commanding shout, and the sounding of God’s trumpet. Those who sleep in Christ actually return With Jesus, to now enjoy thier physical resurrection, and those alive at the time are caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. In the gathering together in Matthew and Mark, Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect, or chosen. The two events have several dissimilar aspects. Combine that with the many statements that no one will know the day or the hour. And yet we know that Jesus will return in glory 2520 days after the beginning of the Seventieth Week, 1260 days after the abomination that causes desolation, means that when He comes in glory, those on the earth will be able to mark their calenders with the day. These facts are irreconcilable unless we are talking about two separate events. What reason do we have to think that the elect, spoken of here, are the church, which had not been revealed at the time Jesus taught these things? The elect referred to would be the very same ones always referred to as the elect up until this time, Israel. There are a number of prophecies in the Old Testament of God gathering all of Israel into the land, believing, saved, never to be cast out again. These are specific prophecies to national Israel. Why would this passage in Matthew not be adressing the fulfillment of those prophecies, which will not be fulfilled until Jesus shows Himself to the Jews, "and they will look upon Me Who they have pierced", after He has come in glory? There are too many unanswerable questions when considering anything other than the pre-tribulation rapture, yet no question remains unanswered from the pre-trib view, at least of those things the Scriptures reveal. Love in Christ, Mark |
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