Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126147 | ||
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. The law is gone for our righteousness' sake. Why are we doing this train of thought again when the previous thread on the same subject was restricted? None of the arguments have changed. Things have still passed from the old law, invalidating the Matthew passage (til heaven and earth pass away ... one jot or tittle will not pass ... til all be fulfilled) as an arguement. As pointed out in the previous thread on this general subject, things have passed from the law, indicating that all has been fulfilled. In addition, Paul says more times than I care to record that we are not under the law. Again, why is this topic still being debated? We are not under the written law. God's law is now written on our hearts and minds. These are the terms of the new covenant. Written ordinances are contrary to us. The Law causes sin to revive and kill us spiritually. The letter of the law is not the point. No one was able to satisfactorily debate this point last time. Unless some new arguements have come up, it will not be satisfactory this time either. Theo-minor |
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2 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | DocTrinsograce | 126154 | ||
Sorry, Theo... I'm can't seem to find where you explained from scripture that the "law is gone." Please forgive me if you gave the scripture to support this before. If so would you mind siting those passages again? From what I understand from scripture the type or shadow of a thing eventually becomes replaced with the real thing (1 Cor 13:10). Thus, the sacrifice of a lamb was a type of Christ (Rev 13:8). Thus, when Christ became our sacrifice, the sacrifice of lambs -- though in the past it was not fully efficacious -- became unnecessary (Heb 9:23). (This is all carefully explained in Hebrews.) Theologians distinguish between the "ceremonial law" and the "moral law." The ceremonial law is all the dietary, holy days, and sacrificial stuff. The moral law are things like the Decalog. The moral law is still important, for these things represent the utterly pure, righteous, and holy nature of God (Mat 5:48 and Lev 20:7). Christ substitutionary death satisfies the demands of the law for the believer (1 John 4:10). (Our death was required by the law because we are of the seed of Adam (Rom 5:12) and because we have committed sin (Isaiah 53:6).) Christ fulfilled the law to the letter (1 Peter 2:22), and God imputes this (His righteousness) to us (Rom 4:6-8) -- just as though we had done it! As if this weren't enough, God gives us another gift by granting us power over sin (Rom 8:3-4). Thus, we are able to say yes or no to sin... not just yes all the time! Sin consists in breaking the moral law (Romans 7:7), in violating the holy will of God (Psalm 51:4), and behaving in a way that takes His Name (as Christians) in vain. If there were no law, there would be no sin (Romans 7:7). Now, day by day, when I do fail, His mercies are renewed morning by morning (2 Cor 4:16). I am reminded each time I fall down that I still need a Savior! Sorry for continuing this conversation if everyone is tired of it... (By the way, Theo, it must be exciting to be studying theology! If I had my life to do over again -- I'm afraid I'm too old now! -- I'd have gone to get my doctorate in systematic theology. God bless you in your studies!) |
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3 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126183 | ||
Hey Doc ... What I see focuses on the other half of the scriptures you're citing. What you have to say is right on the money, but only half correct according to what I see. For example: "If there were no law, there would be no sin (Romans 7:7). Now, day by day, when I do fail, His mercies are renewed morning by morning (2 Cor 4:16). I am reminded each time I fall down that I still need a Savior!" When Paul talks about the law identifying sin, it is precisely his point that we are not under the law anymore. If we are not under the law, sin cannot be identified, and thus we live. If we put ourselves back under the law, sin is revived and we die. Thus: Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. This is one scripture of many, and I will apologize and excuse myself from making reference citations. It's 2:30 am, and I'm typing in the dark. All in all, what I see is that we had the law, and we all needed the law in order to die. Now that we are dead, we are alive again in the resurrection through baptism (water or spiritual is a conversation for another day). But it is not we that live, but Christ that lives in us. Having become dead to the law, we are now free to be saved by the grace of Christ. Having become one flesh with him through marriage, it is not really we that stand before God on the Day of Judgment, but Christ that stands in our stead, because he and we are one person. Hence "we are the body of Christ." This is why it is his righteousness we stand on, and not that of the law. If there had been a law that could have made us righteous, then righteousness would have come by the law. But there was no such law, so our righteousness comes by Christ, by grace through faith. If we try to justify ourselves according to the law, which equates to little more than the deeds of the flesh, then we trade salvation for damnation. Christ is become of no effect to you, whosoever of you are justified by the law. You are fallen from grace. Since our salvation is by grace, to be fallen from grace is a clear indication of a loss of salvation, because we trade the justification of our marriage and oneness with Christ for our own sense of justification under the law, and therein do we perish. The law we are now subject to is brotherly love. All the law and prophets are dependant upon love for their existence; the goal of the Apostles' instruction was love from a pure heart, clear conscience, and sincere faith; there is no commandment we have that is not summed up by love; love fulfills the law; if we love one another, we walk in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in us. In other words, love is the point. Love is the law, and the law means to love. The OT law was designed for a single purpose: To teach the loveless how to love. When Jesus died, the written law that was contrary to us (for the written law identifies and revives sin within us) was nailed to the cross with him, giving us freedom. Freedom to sin? Absolutely not. As you say, we should keep the moral laws. But by what standard? Not by the letter. You'll fail time and again. You keep the moral law (The law of Christ) by the spirit of the law which is love. Love one another as he loved us, and in so doing, you will not stumble. There is plenty that I can say, but these posts are of limited space. What I'm getting at is that the letter of the law is not the point. Love, which is the spirit of the law (or the force that sets it in motion), is what we need to be following. Every command we have must be summed up by love. If it is not, then it is not a real commandment, because such a commandment not founded in love is contrary to scripture. I'll gladly talk about this as much as you like if you're open-minded and willing to take this to conclusion. I don't want to discuss it anymore, however, if the topic is going to be restricted, banned, or anything else, and I don't want to argue with a wall (not to suggest that you are that way). I'll concede to reasonable points, and I'll expect the same from you if we discuss it. Thanks for your reply. Theo-Minor |
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4 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | kalos | 126203 | ||
Theo-Minor: You write: "We are not under the Law." What do you mean by that? I know the Bible says that, but what do you take that to mean? How does it apply to us? Grace to you, kalos |
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5 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126206 | ||
Hey kalos ... What I see is that the law (written) is a stumbling block. The law (Torah or otherwise) creates a list of dos and don'ts that most (all actually, except Jesus) people can't live up to. There are two specific purposes I see for the existence of a written law. 1) Instruction. It is to teach the loveless how to love. Thus Jesus' concluding statement to the Sermon on the Mount: "Therefore (i.e. to sum it all up), do to others as you would have them do to you (i.e. love your neighbor as yourself), for this is the law and the prophets." He later says that all the law the prophets are dependent upon the two great commandments (love God, love your neighbor) for their existence. (Master, what is the greatest commandment ...) He concludes his ministry by giving us a final commandment; one that is new. Love one another as he loved us. By this will all men know that we are his disciples. Paul says that the goal of their instruction is love from a pure heart, clear conscience, and sincere faith (or conviction). Paul says that any commandment we have, whether do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery ... "or if there be any other commandment," it is summed up by this: namely, love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no ill to your neighbor, so love is the fulfilling of the law. John says that if we love our brother, we walk in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in us. To put it all together: Love your neighbor as yourself is what the law and the prophets mean; all the law and the prophets depend upon love for their existence; love fulfills the law; the Apostles' instruction was with the goal of love in mind; if we love, there is no reason for us to stumble. Thus, if we love, which fulfills the OT Law, adheres to the commandment of Christ, meets the full expectations of the Apostles' teachings, and prevents us from stumbling since we walk in the light, we do well, having fulfilled the Royal Law by the scripture "love your neighbor as yourself." Now, as we know, all scripture is profitable for correction, doctrine, reproof, etc. This goes back to the first aspect of this item. It is profitable for teaching the loveless how to love. Those that understand real love will not kill someone else, steal from them, sleep with their wife, or even do something so small as to call them names (Rakka ... thou fool). This is simply not the attitude of love. 2) We need the law to die. Jesus had to die in order to fulfill the law. If you recall Elisha when he was being killed, he cursed everyone. When Jesus was being killed, he forgave them; love to the utmost extreme. He fed the hungry, clothed the naked, healed the sick, comforted the hurting, gave to the poor ... He was meek, mild, humble ... willing to teach, eager to do good, did not seek his own gain, was without pride ... All of these things are qualities of love. It really had nothing to do with the written law. He did it that way because love was the point. Because of the written law, he had to suffer all things in order to live up to the fullest standard of the law, which was love. The law is death. If there had been a law that could have made righteous, then righteousness would have come by the law. Because righteousness did NOT come by the law, it must be concluded that no such law existed that could have made us righteous. We have to trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Our own righteousness is dirt, and nothing we can do will ever measure up, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because of all this ... because the law is death to us, we had to die, just like Christ had to die. In baptism, we go down in imitation of his death, and we come up in the newness of life. As the written law was nailed to the cross with Christ, so too as we nail our old man to the cross, the old man that was subject to the law died. Now, raised up in the newness of life, we are dead to the law, and hence, dead to sin. The law identifies sin. Therefore, as quoted in a previous post, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all those that believe. If we put ourselves back under the law, sin is suddenly reidentified, revived within us, and we die spiritually. Without a written law, there is no identification of sin. Where there is no law, there is no transgression. Theo-Minor Continued .... |
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6 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126207 | ||
Continued .... To say that we are no longer under the law is to say that we are no longer subject to the dos and don'ts, except where brotherly love dictates the behavior befitting a disciple of Christ. Laws that have nothing to do with brotherly love are manmade. In the words of Paul, "If you are dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?" Adhering to the teachings of Christ, and of the Apostles, our commandments must be summed up by brotherly love. If they are not, they are not commandments of God. Such pointless commandments and doctrines are nothing more than stumbling blocks, and I'll give you an example taken directly from Bible study at my house last night: Ben, who was an absolute "Law is valid; must keep the commandments" advocate, is slowly but surely coming around, because none of his arguments can stand up under sound doctrine. He has finally come to a point where he has conceded that love is the law, the law means to love. There is no passage that says we still have to sin. He has acknowledged that it is possible to live without sinning under a doctrine of love. He has acknowledged that any law we have must be summed up by love, and hence, that we must have no other commandment but to love one another, for this is not only the commandment of Christ, but also the fulfillment of the law. Then after all that acknowledgment and recognition of plain scripture that, try as he would, he could not refute, he says, "I still disagree, sort of. There are other commandments we have to keep, like taking the Lord's Supper." Now, if I am following the doctrine of Christ, knowing, trusting, hoping, and believing that if I am obedient in love that I will be approved of God, and there is now this commandment laid before me ... Say I went to church this last Sunday, but didn't take the Lord's Supper. It wasn't sin to me then. But if I believe now in this "command" and put myself "under the law" according to the traditions and doctrines of men, then this new law has just identified sin in a sense that love could never identify, and this is contrary to the commandment of Christ. Now, suppose, knowing now that I have to take the Lord's Supper, that I already had plans to do something this Sunday. I'm now faced with the option of being obedient to God by going to church and taking the Lord's Supper, or going about my plans. Let's say I chose to go about my plans. I have now willfully sinned, and according to Hebrews, if we willfully sin after coming to the full knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice concerning sin. So what am I to do? I have just insulted the spirit of grace through which I am saved ... and this because someone placed a stumbling block before me; that being a commandment of men, and not a commandment of God (which would be summed up by brotherly love to begin with). So because he gave me the law, put me under its grasp, sin was recognized, sin revived, I was put back into a fleshly mind, I sinned, and I died, because the wages of sin is death. Do not be fooled, God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that also will he reap. All in all, I'm not saying we should run around being scumbags. There is a great amount of freedom in the doctrine of love (thus the reason both Peter and Paul have to give the warning not to "use our freedom as an occasion for fleshly vices"), but the doctrine of love adheres absolutely to the Old and New covenants in their most thorough applications. You don't need to know, "Do not murder." You will love your neighbor as yourself and not kill him. By the standard of "do to other as you would have them do to you ..." Tell me how you would feel if someone vaunted themselves above you. It creates envy, strife, jealousy, anger, etc. So because you don't want someone else to feel that way if you are under a doctrine of love, you don't exalt yourself over someone else. It's all really simple, and it's not a hard doctrine to follow. Point of fact, it's easy to live without sin by this standard, and with this is mind, consider two separate statements: For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. We know we know God if we keep his commandments, and they are not burdensome. Modern doctrines teach perpetual sin and human imperfection, but the Bible teaches that the old man is dead, we are free from the laws that bring about death, we are perfected in Christ, and that sin is no longer our master. Questions or comments? Theo-Minor |
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7 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | kalos | 126208 | ||
Theo-Minor: I appreciate your taking the time to answer my question. I can see that a lot of careful thought has gone into your reply. I now think I understand your position better than I did before. Grace and shalom, kalos |
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8 | Why ask Why? Why ask Where? | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126210 | ||
Hey ... that's all we can really ask for eh? It's a never ending process of learning, and I look forward to someone teaching me something new every day. I'm hoping you'll have some good (hopefully positive) input into what I've said. And by all means, poke holes in it if holes can be poked (just be nice *laugh*). I'm far more interested in the truth than in my pride. Theo-Minor |
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