Results 1 - 14 of 14
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 115346 | ||
Ok, let me try this again- I apologise for whatever mistakes I am making to not address your specific question here. 1)They sacrifice, but not for sins...AGREED 2)It was not necessary in Paul's mind, but they did it anyway...AGREED ??????????WHY?????????? ***Illustration*** Let's say you and I live in the US and a New president gets elected after Bush. His name is Jesus. In his primary and election race, he clearly stated that "the Laws in place are important for those who are living here and must be followed, but when I becomes president I am going to join our country with Iraq, and we will become one country. They will all be moving over here in the first week of my presidency, and we will be living under a new Law, but It's one in your heart. You know it- You follow it and know when you disobey it. I do not expect for you to follow the current Laws anymore at that time, but I do want you to always live by those principles. If you still want to follow the Laws that you live under now- that's great! They are good laws, and I love them. But remember that they were only meant for you, and the other people who will now be your fellow citizens are not used to this law, and I don't want any of you to say that they have to follow it to be "real" Americans (which, by the way, you will be called Ameri-Jesus people). You are used to your law because it is your tradition and culture, it is who you are! Don't leave it behind if it is too hard for you. I know how nuch it means to you, and I know that it just wouldn't seem right without it. But remember That some of the Laws are not needed anymore, likes the ones where you have to go to the white house and put a freshly baked cake on the steps of the white house. I am president now, and I have made the biggest, best cake, and it will be put in the front lawn as soon as I am president, so no one needs to do this, ok?" 3) Read the above illustration |
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2 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115380 | ||
ischus, Pretty good illustration, but it's a bit off. I guess the point I'm making is that the Law was still valid for a time after Christ's death and ascension. Why? Paul knew this best and noted that the law was only a shadow of things to COME. Col 2:17 "things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Interesting line there. Paul is saying in essence that even though the law is around, it is but a shadow of a coming reality. Hebrews 10:1 says the same. What people are missing is that it's a coming reality, not a present one. So, did Christ leave us in a state of 'limbo', or did he fulfill all things. It's clear that Christ's work was not entirely finished at the cross. This is noted in black and white in Hebrews 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." See? The Old Covenant was still valid even post ascension. Something else had to happen, what was it? Hebrews 9:28 "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." See, the period from roughly 30 AD to 70 AD was similar to the wandering of the Israelites in the desert in Exodus. There was a 40 year transition period there, to rid the "Kingdom of God" of the wicked. This would be capped off by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This is the way to harminize the Bible as a whole. This is why Futurism can not work, it's missing both the broad picture, and the details. Take care, SUEDE |
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3 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 115390 | ||
SUEDE, You really hit me in the heart with that last post. I truly have never seen it this way before. I have checked my Greek NT and you are right about all the tenses and everything. Please allow me some time to think this over. This is rocking my boat a little and I don't just want to jettison it out of fear of a paradigm shift. Thank you for your comments, and I will get back to you later with some of my thoughts after I spend some time in study and prayer. Thanks again. ischus |
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4 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115392 | ||
ischus, Not me my friend, but the Holy Spirit, I'm just a vessel. I was blessed greatly and equally hit in the heart when God revealed his mystery to me. Let me just say, that you are not alone. There is much to learn, but are ready. Please feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have. Consult the Greek, look at the Bible in the original languages, that's what I did. Look at Young's Literal Translation too. I don't want you to accept this without searching the scriptures. Look at them through the eyes of the 1st Century populace and what is being told to THEM. You see, the last and greatest lie the Devil ever told was that Christ did NOT come again. Thoughts and prayers go out to you. SUEDE |
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5 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 115396 | ||
SUEDE, Let me tell you where I am at right now, and then I need you to clarify some things for me. I have read through Hebrews and Colossians a few times to get the flow and context, and it seems that Paul and the Hebrew writer have a similar view about those who are still practicing the Law; hence, the same forms and tenses. What I am suggesting is that perhaps they both saw those still living under the Law as "living in the past" so to speak. Since they are living as such, they are addressed as such, and are told that there is something better in the future (the present in the eyes of the author, but an unrealised truth, according to those living under the Law). There are several references in each book to the past actions of the completion, fufillment, and nullification of the Law on the cross. Obviously, you are not going to agree with these conclusions, but since I am working this out with fear and trembling, I think you should at least give my stuff a thought. :) Let me know what you see in my tentative conclusions. Thanks for putting me on the road to growth. ischus |
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6 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115402 | ||
ischus, First, "Thanks for putting me on the road to growth" Absolutely! I'm so glad you were receptive to it. "What I am suggesting is that perhaps they both saw those still living under the Law as "living in the past" so to speak." Well, not necessarily living in the past, but living in a present that would have no future. Another thing we need to bear in mind is the people that are being addressed, Paul is addressing Gentiles, Hebrews is to Jews. In Col 2:17 Paul shows us that he knows the reality is coming and that the shadow is dissipating and very soon will be gone. Now, with this knowledge, for the Gentiles he's writing to there is no need to go under the law, only to come out of it a few years later. This is sort of a lost understanding to why Paul was so insistent on not putting the Gentiles under the Law in Acts 15. In Hebrews though, the author let's the Jews know that the Old Covenant is still valid, but that it is going away. So, not so much like you are currently 'living in the past', but that you will be very, very soon. "There are several references in each book to the past actions of the completion, fufillment, and nullification of the Law on the cross." Jesus did do much with the cross, note the veil of the temple being torn down. BUT, there was still more to do. The resurrection, the judgements, the wrath and the dwelling with mankind. So yes, let us not discount the cross by any means for it is certainly a key focual point. "I am working this out with fear and trembling," Good. I did too. I still remember when this information came pouring down on me, I thought I was going to throw up. LOL Lastly, Colin aka flinkywood asked me asome more good questions, you may look at my response given at 1:28 in this section. Take care, SUEDE |
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7 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 115404 | ||
Ok, you make good points here. Can you explain to me then, in light of everything that you have said, what exactly Jesus has done already, has yet to do, and where he is at this moment? Also, can you tell me how you interpret Rev.20? |
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8 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115410 | ||
Ischus, "Can you explain to me then, in light of everything that you have said, what exactly Jesus has done already, has yet to do, and where he is at this moment?" Well, Jesus has done EVERYTHING! There's nothing left for him to do, he is here with us. "Also, can you tell me how you interpret Rev.20?" Yes, I'll sort of skim over it, baring time, it's late. Revelation is not written in exact chronological order, it's very close, but not quite. In Rev 20, John is going to do a bit of a recap until verse 7. The question is, when was Satan bound? Well Jesus actually stated this, we just often over look it. Look at Matt 12 starting at vs 22. Jesus is accused of using Satan to drive out demons. Jesus tells them this is impossible since Satan is in charge of demons. But here's what he says, "29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." Who is the strong man? Satan. What has happened to him? He's bound. Isn't this what John was talking about in Rev 20? Yes. See being in a chain is symbolic, this doesn't mean that Satan was totally powerless, just that he was limited. Paul too was bound with a chain, but we was still very active. (Acts 28:20, 2 Tim 1:16) Satan could not deceive large masses, or nations because he was bound, and since he was bound, demons could be driven out. On the thrones starting in verse 4 are the Christians that have died after the cross, namely the martyrs that were killed by Rome. The Beast is noted as Roman emperors, usually Nero whose evils against Christendom are legendary. Verse 7 we have Satan released and he is going to get Rome to attack Jerusalem, noted as Gog and Magog. They surround the city and here's where I introduce a different view of verse 9. Most people believe that an army will surround Jerusalem, but that she will be saved when fire comes down and devours the army. This is incorrect. Fire is noted as judgement or wrath, but who is God projecting his wrath at? It's Jerusalem. So when we read verse 9 we need to understand that Jerusalem is surrounded and then God's wrath is unleashed on HER, not on the army. The army is the means and method of God's wrath. Here's why I say all this. Look at the Olivet Discourse in Luke 21. Jesus is going to tell the disciples about 'end times' and note what he says in verse 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." See Jerusalem was not going to be saved when she was surrounded by armies, but destroyed. Verse 10, Satan is overthrown finally, yes he's no longer around in any sort of real capacity, as disturbing as that sounds. Note, Hebrews 2:5 "For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels." We are currently in that 'world to come', the next age. And Romans 16:20 “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” Under whose feet? The Christians of the 1st Century. Lastly is judgement which I will hit, well later today! It's late, I'm going to call it a night. Keep questions coming though, they're all good. Take care, SUEDE |
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9 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115487 | ||
ischus, Ok, last part is judgement, which is pretty simple. The dead are going to be judged. Note too that in verse 13 we finally have all the people how died pre-Cross, pulled out of Hades, which is the Greek equavilent of Sheol. That is the ressurection of the dead. Now, because of Christ's atoning work, Sheol or Hades is not needed anymore, so it is emptied and destroyed. It has served its purpose as a sort of 'holding tank' for souls before the Messiah came. Death is gone too, and a lot of people misinterpret this. They believe that physically we will not die anymore. This is not the case. We have to ask, what death did Adam bring into the world by sinning? Was it physical, or was it spiritual? It was spiritual. Adam was warned on the exact day he ate from the tree, he would die. But, when he and Eve ate from it, did they fall over physically dead? No, they didn't. But they did die spiritually. Note what Jesus tells Martha, "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25,26) Being immortal in the flesh is not taught in the Bible. Hope that sort of covers what you were after, let me know if it doesn't, take care, SUEDE |
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10 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 115554 | ||
Ok, so now I need to hear your view on the current status of Hell, Heaven, and the Kingdom of God. Are you saying that Hell and/or Satan no longer exists? How do you interpret the 1000 years in Rev. 20? What is your view of the "already, not yet" philosophy? ischus |
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11 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 115585 | ||
Ischus, “Ok, so now I need to hear your view on the current status of Hell, Heaven, and the Kingdom of God.” Great. Heaven always has been, always will be. When Adam sinned, he cut ties with God, his sin separated us. Mankind could not go to heaven, he had to go to Sheol or Hades and await the Messiah that would atone the sin that Adam started that separated us from God. It is because of Jesus, that we can get into Heaven and bypass Sheol; something people from the Old Testament could not do. The kingdom of God is here, now, Christians make this up. We are totally under the New Covenant, and the Kingdom of God will never end no that it’s in place. “Are you saying that Hell and/or Satan no longer exists?” Hell yes, Satan no. First of all, it’s unfortunate that we often confuse Hades with Hell. These are really two different things. Hades is the Greek equivalent of Sheol, or the grave. Sometimes it was called Abraham’s Bosom. This in essence was a holding tank of sorts. Since Adam sinned, no man could go to heaven to be with God, but where did he go when he died? He went to Sheol or Hades to await the Messiah. BUT, after the Messiah came, Sheol/Hades was no longer needed. Hades gave up the dead in her, and they were judged. But, then Hades gets thrown into the ‘lake of fire’. It is this lake of fire that we often refer to as Hell. But we can see, that Hades and Hell are two very different things. Rev 20:13,14 “ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. The devil, or Satan finds a similar fate. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And when we think about this, it makes sense. If Satan is still around, then really Jesus didn’t defeat him. Jesus still has things to do. This of course is not true. “How do you interpret the 1000 years in Rev. 20?” To me John is speaking prophetically, not literally. It represents a transition period from roughly 30 AD to 70 AD. Most people balk at this idea, but it’s really not that difficult. One, prophetic language tends to be VERY poetic, just read through some of the OT prophesies and you’ll understand. Look at what else is in Rev 20:1-2. You got an angel, a key, a chain, an abyss, and a dragon. I think it is unfair to say these are literal, and I think it’s unfair to say that they are poetic or symbolic, but then to demand that the 1,000 years be literal. To me, that would be bad interpretation. “What is your view of the "already, not yet" philosophy?” A cop out in my opinion, and in light of the Bible it is incorrect. What it attempts to say is that you do have things, but not in full. I don’t buy this, it sounds like someone is ducking some issues. The sad thing is, I want to say that an understanding of end times is not essential. But, really, it is. Not for salvation, but for an understanding of the Bible as a whole. One thing that irks me is that people ignore audience relevance. We MUST understand that the Gospels and Letters that make up the New Testament made sense to the first century Christians. What I like to say is this, the Bible is written for us, but not to us. Do you see the difference? We, in the 21st century are NOT the people the Letters and Gospels are addressed to. It’s shocking, but it’s true. In fact, 19 of the NT books have specific people or groups of people they are addressed to! If you remove the audience, the time indicators don’t make sense. Let’s look at who Paul’s letter to the Corinthians is addressed to. 1 Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God in Corinth….” Ok, now that we know this, let’s look at 1 Cor 15:51,52 “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” So…who is the ‘we’ in this passage? Us, or the 1st Century Corinthians? Do you see the difference that makes? Startling isn’t it? Let me allow you to ponder on that. Heads up, I might not be on tomorrow, we’ve got company and what not, entertaining I guess. But I’ll follow up when I can. Take care, your friends are with you. SUEDE |
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12 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | ischus | 116060 | ||
SUEDE, THANK YOU for your time and willingness to teach me. I really do understand everything now. Unfortunately, as you know, I have encountered some oppostion on the other side of the forum, and I am going to have to leave in light of these irreconciliable issues. I may be back in a few weeks or so, but we'll see what happens. Thanks again, and my parting comments on the front page are in no way directed towards you. brothers, Justin |
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13 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Suede67 | 116092 | ||
Justin, Well, good to hear from you. I was just going to check back with you and see how your studies were going, and your...let's say CAPS post was on the front. I'm glad to hear that it wasn't directed at me, and I'm sorry you've reached some opposition. You've also cleared out your profile so I couldn't e-mail you, even though I know what church you attend. You're a DFW resident as am I. Anyways, you can always e-mail me at suede672001@yahoo.com Just be sure to put a subject like Ischus or something. You know, one of the beauties of the internet is you can always walk away from it. LOL, I know I've had to this MANY of times, being a Preterist and all! So no big deal. Besides, there's other forums too, I spread myself over several of them. Anyways though, I really appreciated your willingness to hear me out and give Preterism a fair and honest look, whether you ultimately adopt it or not. I of course encourage you to study it further! ;-) Alright, well, take care, hope to hear from you sometime in the future, may God bless regardless thought. SUEDE |
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14 | why don't people study the old testmant | OT general | Emmy | 116130 | ||
People do study the old testament. Perhaps you do not know someone who does, but there are many that do. The new testament is a treasure. The old is a treasure too. See quote below The old testament has many prophesies for times during the new testament. They are both teachings and instructions through the Holy Spirit. IN Old testament times through prophets God chose. In New testament times directly to individual people throughout the world. Quote: Mattew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. A scribe refers to a person who knew the OT scriptures. Kingdom of heaven refers to NT times. Thus on knowing the old testament, and also knowing about the Kingdom of God (NT) has two treasures. |
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