Results 1 - 7 of 7
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | rabban | 191737 | ||
Hi Jeff, If you had said to me that you believed that salvation was by works I would go to a great deal of trouble to demonstrate from the Scriptures that you were wrong. Such a view could have possibly harmed your hope of salvation (I say possibly because you might have just been citing James). But when you say that you do not agree with my interpretation of who the spirits in prison are it really matters little to me one way or the other who you think they are. If you are convinced of your position, which I suspect you are, I have no desire whatsoever to try to change your view on a matter of such little relevance. And it would take up far too much space. If anyone is genuinely in doubt on the passage and would like to know contact me by email. But if you are confident of your own position then please do not waste my time. You are probably in no state to be convinced, and I certainly am not. I have studied all positions carefully. Changes of doctrine in such obscure matters do not in fact usually happen overnight. They arise when doubts begin to creep in. And you will be pleased to know that that is not one of the questions you will be asked at the pearly gates (please don't take that literally). In spite of the heading I was not answering a question about the spirits in prison. I was answering one about the meaning of verse 20. The previous verse was only dealt with in order to provide a context. However I do intend to add some explanation in response to your posting, and I will tell you why. It is because it is my inner gut feeling that you believe that it teaches a second chance. That I do consider to be important, because nowhere in Scripture is a second chance ever offered after death. As Abraham said to the rich man, 'Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may pass from there to us' (Luke 16.26). As i have gone over my allotted words I will do so in another post. God bless you too Rabban. |
||||||
2 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | jlhetrick | 191747 | ||
Rabban- perhaps I offended you, not my intention. It may have been a simpler thing for you to have just provided scriptural support for your position, if that were possible. The question was not what you were answering in your response, but simply a request for you to provide biblical support for your declaration concerning verse 19. It's the way we go about bible study on the forum. But to avoid being distracted from the point again I will copy and paste your statement that left me with concern. You wrote: "These ‘spirits in prison’ were the angels who sinned in the time of Noah (Genesis 6.1-2). Human beings are never spoken of in this way (as 'spirits' without qualification), while 2 Peter 2.4 confirms Peter’s interest in the angels who sinned in the time of Noah." So that I don’t take up forum space and my time (or yours) repeating my earlier post you may choose to reread it and address it as you determine appropriate. Something else I would ask is that you help me in understanding what you mean by 2Peter 2:4 “confirming Peter’s interest in the angels who sinned in the time of Noah. 2 Peter 2:4 (ASV) For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; This seems to clearly relate to the “Fall” and not to any angel sinning that might have been going on in Noah’s day. Do I have it wrong? Let’s widen it out a bit: 2 Pe 2:4-6 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;” When we evaluate this it becomes clear that the writer is describing separate events. First, what we commonly refer to as “the Fall”, then the “Flood”, and then the events of Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction. Without context we might be tempted to make the individual verses say whatever conveniences our premise. Might I say that it matters little how qualified our Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, or even English scholarship might be measured if this is to be our approach. Your explanation might be a satisfactory one if we could first establish that it is in fact angels that are referred too. However, I would still have a hard time finding in scripture where angels have “fallen” more than one time. That one fall that I am aware of was, as I understand it, significantly before Noah’s time. I’m unaware of another. If your unwilling (or unable) to provide support for such statements I can accept that but please allow me to point out that requests to have statements clarified and biblically supported is within the forum guidelines as is the expectation that members will honor those requests. Sincerely and God bless, Jeff |
||||||
3 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | rabban | 191754 | ||
Hi Jeff I was not 'offended'. Just pointing out that it is a waste of time to argue over something that has been disputed for 2000 years and will continue to be so to the end of time, and about which people have fixed and entrenched opinions. Even the answer I gave did not deal in any depth with the points that have to be considered. But I will leave it there. (If you wish to go into it more deeply see Selwyn's detailed and scholarly treatment in his commentary on 1 Peter. But note that he is not a conservative evangelical). I know of nowhere in the Scriptures that tell us when the fall of the angels took place. We have the shadowy figure behind the snake in Genesis 3, concerning whom we are only given the briefest hint; the 'son of the elohim' in Job 1 and 2, whom most assume to be the same; the opposer of Joshua the Hight Priest (satanas - adversary) in the time of Zechariah, ditto; and the deceiver of David (1 Chronicles 21.1), again the satanas. These only indicate ONE adversary of the people of God. As far as I am concerned Isaiah 14 is speaking of the King of Babylon and Ezekiel 28 of the King of Tyre. But even then each is only speaking of ONE person. We have no real grounds for reading into them the fall of angels. The first real hint that we have of enemy heavenly powers is in Daniel 10. But we are told NOTHING about their source. Thus I fail to see where you get the idea from of a 'fall of angels'in the Old Testament which can be dated, apart from Genesis 6.1-2, where again we have 'sons of the elohim' as in Job 1-2. Otherwise we owe it to Milton not the Bible. The New Testament writers never give any hint of believing in 'a fall of angels' outside Revelation. So the same picture emerges in the New Testament until we get to Revelation, apart from the fact that there we come across evil spirits/demons. We are told nothing of their background. We are told nothing about the evil angels in Revelation 9 except that they are in the abyss. We do not know when they were imprisoned there. The scene in Revelation 12 gives the impression that it is speaking of a time around the coming of Jesus Christ. Thus your assumption about a well known 'fall of angels', which I assume that you date before Adam (for which there is no Scriptural support at all) is not obtained from the Scriptures. The only indicators we have apart from these are in 1 Peter 2.19; 2 Peter 2.4 and Jude 6, one of which directly connects with the Flood, and the other two of which are in a series looking back to the Old Testament (angels, flood, Sodom and Gomorrah). Now as the ONLY mention of a fall of angels in the Old Testamentis found in Genesis 6.1-2 (which is by the way clearly seen in this way in Jewish tradition e.g. the Book of Enoch cited by Jude), then those references would seem to be pointing to that. There is nothing else in the Old Testament for them to refer to that is not simply the invention of men's fertile minds. Thus if Scripture is our authority 2 Peter and Jude can only refer to the angels who did not keep their separate status in Genesis 6.1-2. Jewish tradition can be cited that very much links the angels who fell at the flood with those who were cast in the pit (tradition which Jude cites) but I will not go into that. All I can say is that if you think you know when the angels fell (apart from Satan) other than in Genesis 6.1-2 then demonstrate it from Scripture. And perhaps you will also indicate where in Scripture mankind are called in an unqualified way 'spirits'. I have given you a number of references where angels are called 'spirits'. God bless Rabban |
||||||
4 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | jlhetrick | 191842 | ||
Hello Rabban, Please bear with me in my continued efforts. When you wrote that “it is a waste of time to argue over something that has been disputed for 2000 years…” you sort of hit the nail on the head. As my original post was not transparent enough let me say clearly that this was part of my concern. All public forums that I am aware of have their own written and unwritten rules, so to speak. The standard on SBF is to avoid controversial issues that have long-standing points of disagreement, especially where no definitive biblical text can rule one side in or out. When I say “avoid” I particularly mean the avoiding of posting such opinions as definite or factual. It is customary, and I believe more scholarly, to at least offer that there is a differing opinion on the issue so that others less learned have the opportunity to consider. With that said, it is obvious to me from reading your posts that you are, and apparently have for some time been, a serious student of the Bible. I respect that and see that to the advantage of the forum as well as myself personally. My point in asking you to support your argument biblically was really to illustrate that you could not. Not in order to embarrass you or create an argument, but rather to show that we have a responsibility to not declare what Scripture does not. To your points on Scripture and the “Fall” of angels I have this in short response. This, as I understand it, does not fall into that category of ‘disputed’ texts or doctrines. The long-held, orthodox view of the Fall is established from a common sense, logical, and contextual approach to Scripture. Satan is described in Scripture as the “Father of Lies” for example. The serpent in the Garden, with Adam and Eve accomplished its goal through deception. If the serpent was not Satan actually, it was the result of Satan’s work specifically; a fallen Lucifer that is. A common sense, logical approach to Scripture requires that conclusion and amounts to more than “the briefest hint”. For sake of time and space I will not attempt to correct the obvious errors such as, for example, stating “the New Testament writers never give any hint of believing in ‘a fall of angels’ outside of Revelation” while at the same time (in the same post) you very clearly give NT reference to where they have done just that very thing (2Peter 2:4 as one obvious example) In short- the rhetoric does nothing to support your position but plenty to avoid offering the biblical support requested. With that, I do agree to disengage from the discussion. God bless, Jeff |
||||||
5 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | rabban | 191859 | ||
Jeff I will refrain from following your pattern of behaviour. I will simply reply 1). That you clearly did not read carefully what I wrote. 2). That you did not have the courtesy to answer any of my questions such as (I quote) a). All I can say is that if you think you know when the angels fell (apart from Satan) other than in Genesis 6.1-2 then demonstrate it from Scripture. b). And perhaps you will also indicate where in Scripture mankind are called in an unqualified way 'spirits'. I have given you a number of references where angels are called 'spirits'. c). Please can you tell me anywhere in Scripture where men are spoken of as 'spirits in prison'? I note also that your answers are in the form of dogmatic statements not of arguments on the basis of Scripture, reference to which in your last reply is singularly lacking. You say, 'The long-held, orthodox view of the Fall is established from a common sense, logical, and contextual approach to Scripture'. That is always the refuge of those who have no arguments. I did not deny that angels had fallen (you see you do not read what people have written). I stated that you could produce no Scripture which said when it had happened. I had already given you detailed Scriptures about Satan so that is irrelevant. I appreciate that you are not a scholar and cannot therefore be expected to take a fully scholarly approach. But I do expect you to be fair. I have been checking back on some of your posts and I would remind you of what you said to one person you wrote to: "let me say that a quick lesson to learn regarding the forum is to not expect to respond to every post made to you. It may seem rude, but it's the reality of it. Very often the multiple responses are addressing the same issue and a response to the first questioner should be sufficient. In addition, there are others who can competently answer questions as well freeing you up from some of the responsibility." I had replied to the first questioner so it seems that you change your coat to suit the situation. You have admitted that you were not genuinely seeking guidance but were simply seeking to find fault. And quite frankly I do not like the way you treat your adversaries. I must therefore request that you will please avoid personally addressing any questions to me in future. Leave it to Doc to do the monitoring. I realise that you will want to have the last blast. It is your way. But please address it to the forum and not to me, for I am not interested. In Him |
||||||
6 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | jlhetrick | 191870 | ||
Rabban- Following my pattern of behavior is what I had hoped to have persuaded you to do; that is, insisting that you support your statements with scripture and that you not qualify as true what is not biblically qualified as true. In any event, you have refused to do so and there is really nothing more I can do to help you in that area. I would like to suggest though, that since we are both easily recognized as falling far short of scholarly, we both make it a point always to allow Scripture to speak for itself. And please do not speak of another’s responsibility to courtesy when it was of you yourself that had been originally and fairly requested to support your argument and you yourself who refused to do that. I should expect absolutely that you refrain from misrepresenting my words. Nowhere did I "admit" that I was "seeking to find fault". But that statement further supports that your not really interested in what I was attempting to do. It is the standard on the forum that when one reads an unqualified statement to ask for biblical reference (even when one knows there is none) in order to point the other writer to their error. Usually these efforts lead to responsible interaction that either corrects the questioner or redirects the original error. And don't think it so easy to avoid responsible participation by asking others not to question your OPINIONS. With that said I will make one more statement in hopes it will help and then promise not to respond to you again on this topic. That way, you are welcomed to have the last word; I promise to read any further response you make. My last point is this. Never be mistaken to believe that “statistics” are in any way sufficient in and of themselves to establish the meaning of a word or phrase. If you are able to apply that to any part of your response to me, you are well on your way. If you are to continue on the forum, I look forward to more productive communication with you. Please remember that it is Scripture that has and is the authority here. God bless, Jeff |
||||||
7 | in Prisons | 1 Pet 3:21 | rabban | 191892 | ||
... | ||||||