Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | 00123 | 232487 | ||
Who are "these people" who all died in the verse? Do they cover all the heroes in faith mentioned from v. 1 to v. 12? Thus, do they include Enoch? Note that V.5 reads "Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found." To my knowledge, it has been a traditional interpretation to conclude that Enoch (his body and soul together) went to God in heaven, skipping death. |
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2 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | EdB | 232491 | ||
What does all mean? All used here is understood to mean all the previously mentioned people. If we maintain Hebrew 11:5 to mean that Enoch didn't die and in fact went into heaven then we have created a conflict with John 3:13 (NASB) 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. We know scripture does not lie or conflict with itself. We also can see John 3:13 allows for no exceptions and is clearly stated so we have to assume Heb 11:5 is citing an event that isn't complete until verse 11 |
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3 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | BradK | 232514 | ||
Hi EdB, You asked, "What does all mean? All used here is understood to mean all the previously mentioned people." Not necesarily... I believe the apparent contradiction can be cleared up by noting the sentence structure and grammar of the original:-) In the passage speaking of Enoch, the sentence starts in verse 4 and ends in verse 7. The next portion- to which you refer and contains vs 13- starts in verse 8 and end in verse 16. As Robertson notes in his Word Pictures, These all [houtoi pantes]. Those in verses 9–12 (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob). I would argue that the grammar gives answer your objection! Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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4 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | EdB | 232515 | ||
But if accept that understanding we must then handle the apparent contradiction now created with John 3. Also we must handle the the contradiction with Hebrews 9:27 (NASB) 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, It seems with your interpretation of scripture we are confronted with one contradiction after another. |
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5 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | BradK | 232527 | ||
Hello Ed, Let me try again to explain. In doing so, I will honestly say I've never encountered the apparent contradictions you see with reconciling Enoch, Elijah, John 3:13, Hebrews 9:27 and 11:13. You said, "if accept that understanding we must then handle the apparent contradiction now created with John 3." I honestly see no contradiction if we take a closer look at the grammar of the text. I previously posted a reply to you in which I noted, "The word "translated" [metathemi] in Heb 11:5, differs in both meaning and sense from that of "ascended", [anabaino] in John 3:13. Again, effect(ing) a change of location in space, with the implication that the two locations are significantly different does no violation to what is stated in John 3:13. Metathemi simply describes the action that, "By faith he was taken up so that he would not see death". Significantly, the verb here is also in the passive mood, which shows (indicates) the action was performed on him (Enoch) by an outside force. He didn't do this himself! However, "ascended" [anabaino] in John 3:13 is a completely different action. Here it conveys the meaning 'to move up—‘to come up, to go up, to ascend.’ The upward movement may be of almost any gradient, for example, in going up a road to Jerusalem (Gal. 1:17) or in going up into a tree (Lk 19:4) or in ascending into heaven (Acts 2:34).' The verb is in the active sense, denoting action performed by the individual himself. So, Enoch, though definitely "translated", did not "ascend" to heaven. A significant, but important distinction I believe." Now Heb. 9:27. Here are 2 things I will note that IMO, clear up any alledged contradiction. 1. The Book of Hebrews was written in the 1st Century to contemporary (Jewish) Christians. Enoch and Elijah had already been 'translated' some 1500 years before! They are not in view of the intent and focus of this passage! 2. The author's use of the verb 'appointed' [apokemai] is in the present tense, so I would understand this to mean that he is speaking to those presently facing ultimate death, not referencing (including) OT saints such as Enoch or Elijah. So, I would still respectfully maintain that scripture teaches that only Enoch and Elijah did not see death but were glorified and transcended this mortal life to be with God. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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6 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | EdB | 232547 | ||
Bradk Did you read the three part quote I posted in post # 232472, 232474, 232475? If you haven't read them please do. I would like to hear your response in light of what that article said. Ed |
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7 | Did Enoch die? | Heb 11:13 | BradK | 232578 | ||
Hi Ed, Yes, I did read the article you referenced- in fact twice before I posted. This is what lead me to respond initially. I’ve now gone back and carefully re-read it for a third time. Here’s my assessment of it: Their entire argument seems to hinge upon a rather rigid view of John 3:13. There are also many (incorrect) assumptions made. I’ve already replied to much of this in my previous posts (232479, 232514, 232527) My first issue is with their attempted comparison of the Hebrew phrase “he was not” as given in Gen. 5:24. They refer to Ps. 37:36 and Ps 39:13, etc in support. They quote, “the phrase means the person “passed away” or “would eventually die”. I beg to differ. Nowhere in the definition of ‘ayin’ do I find this meaning. It ranges from ‘neither’, ‘never’, nowhere’, ‘to nought’, etc. In fact the TWOT says , “it’s basically a negative substantive. The word therefore has no single meaning and the exact translation must be determined in each context.” Next, what of Heb. 11:5? Do we now deny it’s plain meaning? I really see Hebrews 11 as a Divinely inspired commentary on Genesis 5:24 here in this instance particularly. The grammar ‘me ho eidon thanatos’ (did not see death), expands upon “he was not” from the Genesis passage. It tells us what happened to him. The fact that the verb here is not in the present tense has no bearing upon the meaning at hand! Rather (as it should be), it’s a verb, aorist, active and this takes us back to what happen to Enoch. They say, “we must conclude Enoch died the first death”? OK, but why? Because that’s your conclusion? They’re begging the question here. Further to say most people “carelessly assume without proof” seems overly dismissive to other valid views. That may be their opinion, but it’s not an established fact. I don’t think it’s careless to take Heb. 11:5 for what it says. (This is what they’re doing with John 3:13) I think there’s unnecessary confusion being created over “translate”. Of course it doesn’t mean to make ‘immortal’, but in the context of 11:5 it tells us he was “transported to another place”, where he did not see death! Death is negated here. My initial detraction is one of lack of credibility. Who are they and what makes them authoritative? I also think their lack of understanding the original languages shows and it poorly reflects upon the argument. The argument is certainly interesting, but it doesn’t persuade me to change my view- particularly in light of historical interpretation of this passage. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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8 | Where was Enoch "translated"? | Heb 11:13 | 00123 | 232580 | ||
Brad, Thanks for the answer. So, where was Enoch "translated"? Do you think he was translated to the Heaven where Jesus ascended to the Heaven and is sitting at the right hand of God the Father? If not, was he translated to Abraham's bosom where Nazarus died and was carried by the angels? What do you think? -Dan | ||||||
9 | Where was Enoch "translated"? | Heb 11:13 | BradK | 232589 | ||
Hi Dan, Here's the previous related posts in my discussion with EdB (#232479, 232514, 232527). Wuest notes, "(11:5) Enoch was translated. The word is ['metatithemi']. The verb 'tithemi' means “to place,” the prefixed preposition 'meta' signifying a change, the compound word meaning “to transpose” (two things, one of which is put in place of the other). This word is used in Acts 7:16 of the transporting of the remains of Jacob and his sons to Shechem, in Gal. 1:6 of the sudden change of the doctrinal position of the Galatian Christians, and in Heb. 7:12, of the change of the law of the priesthood, a new regulation being instituted in place of the old. In the case of Enoch, the word speaks of his sudden transference from earth to heaven. It refers to a change of position. It was one thing put in the place of another, heaven for Enoch rather than earth. Now, in the transference of believers from earth to heaven, that operation is effected usually by death. But in the case of Enoch, it was apart from death. He departed this earthly scene without dying." [Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament] Rather than repost entirely, I'll hope this is helpful in answering your question. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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