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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 89867 | ||
What is the scriptural evidence that the rapture 1) takes place at a time prior to the second coming, and 2) that believers who rise are taken immediately to heaven? | ||||||
2 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | justme | 89911 | ||
RoaringLamb: Welcome to the Forum! Take some time and read Matthew 24, the whole chapter. I think you will find some differences from what you are thinking. Now if these are the Words of Jesus, who is the one returning, and others teach some thing different, who do you think is the better authority? Blessings. Any thoughts? justme |
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3 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90279 | ||
justme: Thank you for your response and welcome! I read Matt. 24 as you suggested. Actually, it's one of several passages I had in mind when I asked my question, and I'd hoped for a more specific response. I'm familiar with all the accepted teachings on the subject and have read all the passages on which they are based. It's just that I don't see that they are saying what is being widely taught. When I've been reading says THE RAPTURE COINCIDES WITH THE SECOND COMING RATHER THAN PRECEDES IT BY YEARS, as it seems most Christians believe. One thing we often fail to do when discussing the Bible is "sweat the details" - to scrutinize every word and the full import of what a passage says. This is what I think we have done with scriptures relating to prophetic events - particularly, to Christ's return and what occurs immediately after death. As a result, many Christians I have spoken to, heard preaching, or whose writings I have read, hold to beliefs that contradict one another. For example, many of the same people who believe 1 Thess. 4:17 is describing a secret rapture, in which Jesus returns prior to the second coming to take believers to heaven, also believe the saved go to heaven immediately at death while the un-saved go immediately to the lake of fire. I believe both views are false, but I don't see how anyone can hold to both. Then again, maybe I do... I've found that more doctrinal errors occur over the timing of biblical events than anythng else. Passages and narratives are not always written in strict chronological order. Too often we miss the semantic signposts that indicate where breaks in the narrative, digressions, and parenthetical thoughts occur. On this rapture/second coming issue, we have missed a critical signpost that appears in several endtime passages, including the following: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:30-31 KJV). "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4:15-17 NIV). "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised inperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51-52 NIV). "The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15 NIV). Did you notice that each of these events have in common the BLOWING OF A TRUMPET? Yes, I know many events in the Bible are associated with the blowing of trumpets, but these all point to the blowing of a particular trumpet. In Matt. 24 the appearance of Christ which everyone on earth can see occurs in concert with a trumpet and God's gathering of his elect. In 1 Thess. 4 the resurrection of the dead saints followed immediately by the rising of the saints who are alive to meet them and Christ in the air is accompanied by "the trumpet call of God." Traditionally, this is the rapture. First Corinthians 15 is speaking of the same event as 1 Thess. 4, as evidenced by the righteous dead being raised imperishable and the living righteous being changed -- also associated with a trumpet blast. But note, here it gets a little more specific: it says "at THE LAST TRUMPET"! What does Paul mean by the "last" trumpet? Obviously, there must have been OTHER trumpets blown BEFORE this one. Finally, Revelation 11, depicting the climax of the Day of the Lord, in which God has poured out his wrath upon the earth, the last 7 phases of which had been announced by great trumpet blasts, identifes "the last trumpet": it is the 7th trumpet. And what happens at the blowing of this trumpet? The kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of the Lord. We find ourselves at the same point in time shown in Matt. 24 when "all the tribes of the eath mourn" and "see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"!! justme, PLEASE, if I have missed something show me; but if it's clear to you from these scriptures that error is being taught, please discuss them with other believers. |
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4 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | Mathew | 90286 | ||
Hello Justme, Untill rescently, I had always beleived the preconceived idea that Christians went to hell immediatly after death and sinners to either a waiting place or the lake of fire. When I was challenged with the question of the rapture and life after death, from many of my non-Christian friends at work I decided to prove my points to them with actual scripture to back it up. What I found was that I was totaly wrong about the whole thing. Now I dont beleive in a secret rapture or disembodied spirits of Christians or sinners. Everything must be clothed and tangable in heaven. Not Spirits floating around awating there reward which is coming with Christ. So it sounds like me and you are on the same page. MaTT MaTT |
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5 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90290 | ||
Hi, MaTT - thanks for your response (actually, I'm Roaring Lamb - I was replying to justme). Yes, it looks like we are pretty much on the same page. I hope it continues this way. If you follow some of the discussions I will be involved in shortly, you will find that a lot of what I espouse goes against a lot of popular Christian teaching. But you will also find that I believe in SOUND DOCTRINE - which the Bible predicted would be pretty much SCARCE in the last days (2 Timothy 4:3). You'll also find I HAVE NO REGARD FOR ANYONE'S OPINION - NOT EVEN MINE! I'm only interested in what the Bible teaches on any topic. If someone corrects me on a point, I WILL CHANGE MY POSITION. See how many times THAT occurs in this forum! |
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6 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | justme | 90308 | ||
RoaringLamb: Just as a note to your statement about changing positions, or minds. Read over some of my first notes, and I have changed my mind on occasion. Never say never, because every time I do, I eat my words. I once read " Lord help my words to be sweet and kind; because tommrow I may have to eat them." Oh how harsh words chew so hard and even worse to swallow. Think about it. Any thoughts? justme |
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