Results 1 - 14 of 14
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 24751 | ||
In the Greek "food or drink" is actually "eating and drinking". In the Greek "in respect to" means "in that portion of". The "Sabbath day" here refers to the ceremonial sabbaths of the feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement (a day of fasting so it wouldn't becovered under "feast day"). For more details see my study at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com (spent two years looking at 182 sources) |
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2 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25891 | ||
Fixed a bug on the introduction page of my study to Colossians 2:16 (for some reason I got clipped!); here's part of it: For those who might wish to skip the analysis altogether here's the real high points: 1) The words translated as "in meat and drinks" is not about unclean food or dietary laws. This is because there are simply no laws about unclean drinks. Also, the words translated as "in meat and drinks" should be translated as "in eating and drinking." Therefore, it is most likely that these words are about "feasting and fasting as the case may be." So, the believers in Colossae were being criticized about feasting on the days that follow; rather than fasting which the Gnostic ascetics alleged would bring them into a closer union, or communication, with God. 2) The words translated as "in respect of" mean "in portion of"; thus when we link the previous observation with this it is reinforced: the believers at Colossae were being criticized about feasting on the days that follow rather than fasting which the Gnostic ascetics alleged would bring them into a closer union, or communication, with God. It is amazing the number of people who can't seem to read the English translations correctly! The words "in respect of" tell you the days on which the believers were feasting and fasting. In their rush to condemn the seventh-day Sabbath far too many people (even some high-powered scholars among them!) have simply glossed over these very simple words. These words are one of the major keys to understanding these two verses. In effect, these words begin a parenthetical statement that could be dropped with no effect on the meaning of the verses. 3) The Greek word translated as "holyday" (heorte) in the KJV is never used in reference to the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Atonement. If you wish to check the txts for yourself they are provided in Table 3.16 And both are ceremonial sabbath days. So, Paul would not be redundant to say "sabbath days" if he was trying to list all of the feast days of the Jewish religious economy. This is a crucial key to understanding the text. 4) In looking at the days that are mentioned in Col. 2:16 I believe that it is we as Westerners who would tend to assume that Paul is talking in terms of a calendrical progression: annual, monthly, weekly. However, there is not a shred of evidence to support this assumption. It is true that there is a relationship between the terms; but there is no evidence that it is basedsolely, and only, on the calendar. This idea is being read into the text. 5) Some sources incorrectly claim that the following OT texts exhibit the same, or exact, or identical, progression of terms: 1 Chron. 23:31; 2 Chron. 2:4, 8:13, 31:3; Neh. 10:33; Ezek. 45:17 and Hos. 2:11. In fact, only the last two have the same sequence of terms. The verses are given in Table 1 along with notes about the relevant Hebrew words -- see if you can spot the pattern! In Table 2 are three more verses with differing sequences of terminology of worship days. 6) Another key to understanding what Paul meant by "sabbatwn" is given when Paul appears to refer to it as a "shadow" in vs. 17. When compared with the facts that a) the seventh-day Sabbath was instituted before sin and thus before any shadow was necessary and b) even in both accounts of the Law it is given as a memorial and not a shadow or type of something to come.17 Thus, it would be mis-leading, at best, to refer to the seventh-day Sabbath as a "shadow-sabbath." 18 The reasons just given alone, at a minimum, strongly imply that Paul is not talking about the seventh-day Sabbath in vs 16 but rather the ceremonial sabbaths. It has been interesting to note that virtually all of the critics of this study to date never seemed to have had read anything beyond this point! They seem to develop a real severe case of tunnel vision that prevents them from seeing any further. 7) A number of sources attempt to escape the implications of the present tense in vs 17a by changing it to a past tense! |
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3 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | EdB | 25914 | ||
Okay let us say your right. What is your point? That we should keep the dietary laws and observe the seventh day Sabbath? You keep coming back to this verse and I wonder why? Will you please tell us? EdB |
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4 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25920 | ||
Ah,the point! The point is simple: The verse isn't saying what many people think it says. a) It isn't talking about dietary laws. And when today's scientists tell you that a vege diet is better for you and that just so happens to be what God laid out (plus fruit and nuts and grains) then why should I say that neither knows what they are talking about? b) The verse isn't talking about the seventh-day Sabbath either. It is talking about the believers being judged on their feasting and fast (as the case may be) on the days that then follow. Secondly, I just found out that my file had been clipped and so I fixed it. I shared part of what had been clipped assuming that others who are interested in studying the Bible would also be interested in what I found. Of course, we all know how dangerous it is to assume--but then agian, hope springs eternal, right? |
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5 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | EdB | 25957 | ||
I still don't know what your saying. I read what you said, and I understand the words, but what is your point? EdB |
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6 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25960 | ||
Well, then we're in a bind Ed because I don't know how to make it any simpler. Maybe from my email feedback someone will give me a hint. | ||||||
7 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | EdB | 25964 | ||
Your saying the verse is incorrectly translated. Your saying it is talking about festivals and fasts. Okay now how do I apply your translation to my life? Does anything change? Should I not go to a feast or not fast or not celebrate sabbaths? How do I apply your way of translating this verse to my life is my question? EdB |
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8 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25970 | ||
Ah, now I see where you are at! First, a little thing about exegesis (I also have a small page at my web site where I list about 25 links to which one can go so one can learn how to do it) (in very broad terms here): you start with the grammatical and linguistic analysis, then you look at its context (literary and historical), then and only then do you move to application. So, in this case, I have a ways to go to get where you want to be. However, I can tell a few things based on what I have seen. 1) If your church is having potluck after church and someone comes in and says that if you are really serious about communing with God then you shouldn't be feasting, that instead you should be fasting then based on this verse I would say that you can safely ignore what they are saying. However, I have never seen this type of scenario in today's world. 2) The more likely scenario is that someone will tell you that in this verse Paul is saying that we don't have to follow the dietary laws or keep the Sabbath. Based on what Paul actually wrote we can now know that is not the correct interpretation of this verse--which makes me wonder about any other translation of any other verse that the person may then talk about--note the "contra" (source(s)) that I have in the footnotes to my study, these people are particularly suspect. 3) Paul is definitely not talking about "not celebrate sabbaths", but rather the believers at Colossae were being judged for _how_ they were celebrating. Since he wrote this between 57-62 A.D. that means that the believers at Colossae were celebrating the days without condemnation from Paul. So, does that mean we should doing it? I don't know; I have noted a number of people who think we should. |
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9 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | EdB | 25974 | ||
So can I take it from what you said in point 2 that we are still under the dietary laws and that we still need to keep the seventh day sabbath? Thanks so much for the lesson in exegsis I will insure those points are in my notes on the subject EdB |
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10 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25980 | ||
Well, when you go to your doctor for your yearly physical and he tells you start eating decent ... ;) My grandfather went in and told him that after every breakfast he'd have these gas pains. So,the doctor asked what he had for breakfast. "Eggs, hash browns and pork sausage" Well, do away with the prok sausage" And presto the gas pains went away! Or, you watch the news and they tell you that too many Americans are overweight, they tell you about the rise of diabetes, they tell you about high cholestoral, how unheathy junk food is, etc., etc. doesn't all start to make sense that the manufacturer would tell you what not to eat? And after having worked a long hard grind at work isn't it nice to have a day off? And since there isn't a clear word that either the dietary laws or the Sabbath has been done away with (we know it isn't in Col. 2:16-17 at least) doesn't that mean that they are still in effect? The best I can do right now is from the negative angle. |
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11 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | EdB | 26002 | ||
You sure dance around answering a question. So I take you are for the dietary laws and seventh day Sabbath? A yes or no will do. EdB |
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12 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 26009 | ||
Ed, I don't "dance" period! I refuse to be the "instant expert" type who spouts off. All I can tell you is what I found. My personal life is betrween me and God just as yours is between you and Him. He gave us a brain to use and I'll use mine the best I can. If you don't like it and have to attack me then that says more about you than me. |
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13 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | Hank | 26010 | ||
djconklin, you don't have to dance unless you really want to :-) Just state your position on dietary laws and the seventh-day Sabbath, if you have one. By the way, I could be mistaken, but I thought Ed was asking you the same thing, not attacking you in any way. --Hank | ||||||
14 | Correcting the translation | Col 2:16 | Radioman | 26019 | ||
If you guys had the ability to read (especially minds); if you were smart enough not to make assumptions (where insufficient data exists); if you possessed a suprior mentality such that you always made good grades; if you could impress people with the length of your bibliographies; in short, if you had attended grad school, you would be brainy enough to figure out his position, which is: He has no position. His only position is that he, poor writing and communication skills aside, is right and all uneducated swine are wrong. If you don't believe it, just ask him. | ||||||