Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Rowdy | 133984 | ||
Yet another article from from another christian, only this time, based on a man from long ago. Part 1 of 2. MARTIN LUTHER SPEAKS ON “FAITH ONLY” AND BAPTISM by Kyle Butt, M.A. One popular belief in many protestant denominations is the idea that God supplies salvation to each and every person based solely on the faith of that person, apart from any action taken by that individual. This idea, often called sola fide, says, that a person is saved by faith alone. Any number of quotations demonstrating this doctrine can be cited. In a debate with Thomas Warren in 1953, L.S. Ballard affirmed the position that “the alien sinner is saved the very moment he/she believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God” (Warren and Ballard, 1953). This particular belief is commonly worded like this: “People are saved through Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.” According to the modern-day advocates of “faith alone” salvation, water baptism cannot be a requisite to salvation, because it is something “more than” faith. While space limitations prevent a thorough investigation of the biblical doctrine of baptism (see Lyons, 2003), it is interesting to note how far the “faith alone” doctrine has drifted from its original form. The idea of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther. Indeed, he and the other reformers challenged the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works. Martin Luther did not, however, take faith alone to mean that mere mental assent to Christ’s deity was sufficient to obtain salvation. In fact, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the modern-day idea that baptism cannot be required for salvation. While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of baptism as a requisite for salvation. In his Large Catechism, Luther wrote: [I] affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless…. Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action (1978, pp. 98-99). From Luther’s comments about baptism, it is obvious that he viewed water baptism as essential for salvation. Many of the protestant denominations that attribute their ideas about “faith only” to Martin Luther have not been taught that Luther’s concept of faith alone was not in opposition to works of God (like baptism and repentance), but in opposition to meritorious works by which a person believes that he or she “earns” salvation. What, then, would Martin Luther say to those today who teach that “faith alone” excludes baptism? Listen to his words pertaining to this teaching: But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it…. It follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it (1978, pp. 101-102). Martin Luther was a man. He made many mistakes and believed things about the Bible that were not true. It should be noted, however, that the “faith only” doctrine attributed so often to him has been misrepresented on a grand scale. Martin Luther’s words are unambiguous and clear. His “faith only” doctrine did not exclude baptism as necessary for salvation. Could it be the case that those who loudly tout the “faith only” mantra have not thoroughly investigated the works of the man to whom the doctrine is so often attributed? Please see Part 2 of 2. God bless. Rowdy |
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2 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Morant61 | 133985 | ||
Greetings Rowdy! I'm not going to debate baptism with you again, per my promise! :-) However, I would like to respond to your characterization of faith. You wrote: "Martin Luther did not, however, take faith alone to mean that mere mental assent to Christ’s deity was sufficient to obtain salvation." Your argument is what is often referred to as a strawman. No one has made the claim that 'mere mental assent' will save anyone. The Bible makes it abundatently clear that faith is not 'mere mental assent'. Let's look at what Scripture says about faith. Faith saves: Eph. 2:8 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Faith purifies our hearts: Acts 15:9 - "He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith." Faith sanctifies us: Acts 26:18 - "to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." We live by faith: Rom. 1:17 - "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" We are justified by faith: Rom. 3:28 - "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." We gain access to grace by faith: Rom. 5:2 - "through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." Faith helps us stand in Christ: 2 Cor. 1:24 - "Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm." We live by faith: 2 Cor. 5:7 - "We live by faith, not by sight." We receive the Holy Spirit through faith: Gal. 3:14 - "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." We are made righteous through faith: Phil. 3:9 - " and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." We produce good works through faith: 1 Thess. 1:3 - "We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ." We do great things for God by faith: See all of Hebrews 11! Our sins are atoned for through faith: Rom. 3:25 - "We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ." We are 'sons of God' through faith: Gal. 3:26 - "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus," Through faith, we can approach God: Eph. 3:12 - "In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence." Christ dwells in our hearts through faith: Eph. 3:17 - " so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love," We are shielded through faith until Christ's return: 1 Peter 1:5 - "who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." Does any of this sound like 'mere mental assent'? Faith is a complete trust in God. It is a surrender to His will. It even includes obedience to His commands. But, faith is not 'mere mental assent'! Would you care to show me anywhere in Scripture where faith is defined as 'mere mental assent'? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Rowdy | 133992 | ||
I must admit, dear friend Tim, I read your posts and sometimes I can't tell whether you're on my side arguing in favor of my posts or on the other side arguing against. "Faith is a complete trust in God. It is a surrender to His will. It even includes obedience to His commands. But, faith is not 'mere mental assent'! "Would you care to show me anywhere in Scripture where faith is defined as 'mere mental assent'?" I'll mention here again there is, by the Forum's count exactly 87 verses from the NT to add to this discussion. (Just be sure to insert the word "bapti" in the Word Search to get them all.) Please don't misunderstand me, I'd be literally the last person in the world to deny the solid truth behind every one of the scriptures you cited above. But please take another look at the article with the quote from Martin Luther. Even he agreed to baptism being essential to one's salvation. "[I] affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless…. Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action" (1978, pp. 98-99). Don't you see baptism is merely the real and genuine demonstration of real and genuine faith just like you've described above? It is the same principle Naaman discovered in being healed from leporsy. It's the same principle the Israelites discovered when they accepted the gift of the promised land. Although it was a gift of the Promised Land, they still had to obey God in conquering the Cannanites who were there first. God even told them to kill everyone, men, women and children. That too wasn't easy, I'm sure but God said it and Joshua obeyed. King David discovered this principle when he obeyed God, He knew with genuine, absolute confidence that God was with him. How else could he have conquered giant Goliath at least twice as tall as he and at twice the warrior as David? How? Because Goliath was dwarfed when placed beside David AND his God Almighty. When we're baptized and obey ALL of God's other commands then and only then can we approach God with absolute confidence, even to the moment of Judgment Day, as per 1 John 2. With reference to your question about "mere mental assent," that's the modern way to emphasize the point of complete obedience that our friend, Kyle Butt is trying to make. If we as humans hold anything back but absolute obedience to ALL of God's commands, we might as well as stay home. It has the same effect as "mere mental assent." Again, don't you see, King Saul discovered this very important principle when Samuel told him "It's better to obey than to offer sacrifice." When we do/say anything less, it's like we're telling God "OK God, I'll obey but I gotta do it my way, on my terms and conditions; here's my counter-offer." Ananais and Sapphira discovered this principle in Acts 5 and paid with their lives AND their souls. When we hold back from God and actually choose NOT to obey His commands, how can we truly call Him Father and then dare to think we're good to go to Heaven where only the faithful and the obedient with the blood of His dear Son covers their sin? No, my friend, I would beseech you. Study ALL of this article, the truths contained therein but most especially keep studying and praying on this matter. I'll keep on praying for you and God bless. Rowdy |
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4 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Morant61 | 134002 | ||
Greetings Rowdy! You wrote: "Please don't misunderstand me, I'd be literally the last person in the world to deny the solid truth behind every one of the scriptures you cited above. But please take another look at the article with the quote from Martin Luther. Even he agreed to baptism being essential to one's salvation." When I list Scripture, there is always a 'but' in your response! :-) You also wrote: "When we're baptized and obey ALL of God's other commands then and only then can we approach God with absolute confidence, even to the moment of Judgment Day, as per 1 John 2." However, this is not what Scripture says. Scripture says that we are saved through faith, not through works. This isn't even what 1 John 2 says. 1 John 2:3 - "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, ‘‘I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." Notice what 1 John 2 actually says. It doesn't say that if we obey Him we are saved as a result. It says that our obedience is the evidence that we really know Him. The difference between our two positions is quite simple. You see: Faith plus works equals salvation. I see: Faith equals salvation that results in works. There is a world of difference between the two views. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | adonia | 134305 | ||
Please consider this Verse from Romans 12:3 "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" In Him | ||||||
6 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Morant61 | 134317 | ||
Greetings Adonia! Thanks for the input my friend! What relationship do you see between Rom. 12:3 and the issue of baptism? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | adonia | 134324 | ||
I Apologize that i did not make myself clear.I was bring up the issue of faith and where it comes from. The idea that we must be baptisted to be saved is not one that i agree with.Yes i belive it is important to be baptisted as a sign of obediance and love to Our Lord,but not for our salvation.I brought up Romans 12:3 because it is a good reminder to me not to get to puffed up about myself. Faith is also something the Lord gives us and then asks us to trust Him. Heres hoping you get what i am trying to convey. In Him who is always Faithful |
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8 | Baptism or No? Our Forefathers said... | Eph 4:9 | Morant61 | 134328 | ||
Greetings Adonia! Gotcha! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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