Results 1 - 11 of 11
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What about the other ministries? | Eph 4:11 | charis | 1773 | ||
God bless us everyone, The above scripture is often called the 5-fold ministry. I have received much commentary stating that there are no apostles or prophets in this present day. However, not one person has made any comment whatsoever about evangelists, pastors, and teachers. I assume that is because their validity is not in question. This is interesting; pastors is mentioned just this once, evangelist is mentioned in two other places, and teacher most of all, but almost always with prophet. How does one account for this? Please use scripture to explain (not explain away) the emasculation of this scripture. Your servant in Christ Jesus, charis |
||||||
2 | What about the other ministries? | Eph 4:11 | Ray | 1787 | ||
Hi charis, I looked at Ephesians and your reference in John 13:16 also today. It seems to me that all of us in the body of Christ are equally important. "A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." contrasted with Ephesians 4:11 without the word in italics;"And He gave apostles, and some prophets, and some evangeliss, and some pastors and teachers, ..." and why, so that we all can "attain the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God..." So I would say that everythings been done already. We have the word of God and we should be equipped "for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." Go back also to Ephesians 4:7. "But to each of us grace was given according to the measure of (Christ"s) gift." Go back further to Eph 3:20 "according to the power that works within us, to (Him) be the glory in the church..." Notice the fullness of God and Christ in this section. Now I would go back still further to Eph 3:14 "For this reason I bow my knees before the (Father)." The Holy Spirit. I love Ephesians. Check out the "according to"s of the book. 3:7 "of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of (His) power." see 2:18 "for through Him, we both have our access in one (Spirit) to the Father." |
||||||
3 | All or none? Or some? | Eph 4:11 | charis | 1793 | ||
Dear Ray V.H. I agree with you that every believer is called to participate in the church. There are no 'spectators.' However, God used Paul to tell us about a specific 5-fold gift (ministry) and I think your 'why?...' was correct. There are, indeed, several other ministries and helps and talents listed throughout the New Testament, and each has purpose and validity, and each is necessary to equip the church. I am not sure what you meant by, "...everything has been done already..." When each member of the body is functioning in his-her appointed gift, then everything will be done? My question, however, was a bit more specific. We have a list of 5 gifts, and I have been told by several colleagues that 2 of them are no longer valid in a contemporary sense. (Actually, I've been told a lot more than that! :-) But no one has made mention of the last 3 gifts. If the first two are gone, are the last three as well? Do we no longer have evangelists, pastors and teachers? In Christ Jesus. charis |
||||||
4 | All or none? Or some? | Eph 4:11 | Ray | 1806 | ||
Dear charis, I just wrote in another tree I guess and said that I thought in essence that the "as" in Ephesians should not have been inserted. In other words, the church is already equipped by the words written by the apostles, the word of God. I just read Ephesians 3:4 where it says,"By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;..." I would say that we have the word of God and we don't need any new revelations. When you read you can understand. If you read the word, and know Him, you will be used. Eph. 5:8 "... for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the (Lord); walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord." |
||||||
5 | No more evangelists,pastors,teachers? | Eph 4:11 | charis | 1807 | ||
Dear RayV.H., Now I know what you meant by, "...everything has been done already..." Every revelation necessary to function as a church is presently available. Fine. I disagree, because obviously the church has not been able to overcome division, dissension and internal strife and prejudice. Bickering over personal opinion is rampant, not only here on this forum, but all over the world, even to the point of war. If we have the information, we are certainly not using it very efficiently, and "...until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ." Ephesians 4:13 NASB, is far off. BUT, HOWEVER, NONTHELESS, my question was a bit more specific. We have a list of 5 gifts, and I have been told by several colleagues (including you, now) that 2 of them are no longer valid in a contemporary sense. (Actually, I've been told a lot more than that! :-) But no one has made mention of the last 3 gifts. If the first two are gone, are the last three as well? Do we no longer have evangelists, pastors and teachers? In Christ Jesus. charis |
||||||
6 | No more evangelists,pastors,teachers? | Eph 4:11 | Ray | 1811 | ||
Hi charis, Consider Romans 10:14 - ll:8..."for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in (Him) whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" It goes on to say that all of the people didn't heed the good news from the preachers. "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Again, we have all that we need already. We have the word of God. It relates to the "priesthood of all believers" that I grew up with. We all can read the scriptures and apply it to our lives and the Bible will teach itself. Rom.11:8 says that the Jews were given a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day." Rom 11:20 But you "stand by your faith." Stand by the word of God. By the way, I'm not yelling at the start. :-) I think that some time ago someone appeared to be yelling but I think that he was showing the all caps Hebrew and the Jewish significance in his comment. Later, Ray |
||||||
7 | So, no ministries at all? | Eph 4:11 | charis | 1812 | ||
Dear RayV.H., I agree that a body without division is God's desire, and that the foundation for ministry in the church is already laid in the Bible. But, if I am reading your replies correctly, you are saying that there are no longer any ministries at all? All are priests, so ministers and ministries are unnecessary? Is it not true, then, that the local church would have no 'members' chosen by God to perform specific tasks? Frankly, it sounds like chaos, with no commitment and responsibility to one another, and no 'talents' used for His glory. "For the body is not one member, but many. But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it." 1Corinthians 12:14, 18, 27 NASB. I think you answered my question, but I am not sure. If you are saying what I think you are saying, then every believer is a 'one-man-show,' and the 'many-membered body' is invalid. Every person has his Bible, and acts as he feels the Bible tells him. Though I see little scriptural argument for denominational hierarchy over the local church, I am quite certain that there must be some orderly separation of responsibility within the local church. Thank you for your comments, and bless your path in Christ Jesus. charis |
||||||
8 | So, no ministries at all? | Eph 4:11 | wdc | 1883 | ||
Just a quick thought here, I've got to go to bed. I believe one of the reasons we have so much trouble in our churchs today is because we have done away with the first gifts mentioned in Eph. 4. Just one example, a church I was a member had a great evangelist for a pastor, we baptised people and families nearly every week. Our church tripled in size in less than two years. But there was one major problem, the people were not being fed. Our pastor did not no how, because he was an evangelist. He also was very jealous of his pulpit, so the people never heard anything but John 3:16. Very soon division sprang up, and in a matter of months, the church split. I do not put all the blame on the pastor, but he surely could prevented this by seeing his weakness and using others to fill the void. We need people that God has gifted as apostles and prophets to keep the church moving forward and to keep a balance in teaching the Word. I believe the Bible is very clear on the use of these offices today. In the church were I now pastor, I use the people God's sends us to meet the needs that I am not gifted to meet, I think that is the way God meant for it to be. I would feel very sorry for the people in the congregation if I didn't see my lack and try to supply that for them. I am sleepy, later...wdc | ||||||
9 | How do you define apostle? | Eph 4:11 | Xapis | 2143 | ||
Charis, I don't see how you will get an answer to your question. This concept of the 5-fold ministry was quite new to me several years ago. But the more that I consider it, the more I am made aware of its consistency with the scriptures. I had only been in the one man show type of churches that wdc refers to. The longer that I walk with Christ and the more that I see the strengths that He has given me and the weaknesses that they don't make up for, the more that I know I need others in the body to help me. Romans 12:3 warns us not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought. I believe that having a Spirit led ministry with a balance brought by this concept would empower all involved to function at higher levels of impact. One problem that I see reading this thread however,is that some are using one definition of apostle and others are using a different one, same with prophet. As long as that is happening there cannot be a coming together. That is why I don't think that you will get an answer that you can live with. How do you define apostle and what is a prophet? |
||||||
10 | How do you define apostle? | Eph 4:11 | charis | 2163 | ||
Dear Xapis, Excellent observation! Actually, I have tried to explain my ideas on this in several other 'threads.' I admit that it was my fault in posting similar questions, but afterwards others were 'cross-threading.' :-) The major problem, as I see it, is that many are adamant that an Apostle must be like Peter or Paul, and a Prophet must be like Isaiah or Jeremiah. APOSTLE (Gk. (apostolos,) a "delegate"). One sent with a special message or commission. In this sense the word is used in the LXX (1KI 14:6; ISA 18:2), and in the NT: JOH 13:16, "Neither is one (who is sent) [apostle] greater than the one who sent him"; 2CO 8:23; PHI 2:25, where persons sent out by churches on special errands are called their (apostles,) or messengers. In HEB 3:1 Jesus is called "the (Apostle) and High Priest of our confession." (New Ungers Bible Dictionary) The Bible describes 3 'types' of apostles; 1) Jesus. 2) The 'Apostles to the Lamb,' also called the 12. Matthai replaced Judas Iscariot, the only 'replacement' apostle in the Bible. 3)The 'post-ascension apostles.' Paul and Barnabas, among others, continued the ministry of 'special commissions' between churches. Sometimes these are referred to as the 'lower sense' of the apostolic ministry. I believe this continues today, although often misinterpreted and abused. I do not think that the present-day apostle equals the missionary, as I know too many missionaries that do not fit the Bible's description. However, some missionaries may well be working in an apostolic calling. Prophet-"But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." 1 Corinthians 14:3 NASB. Though many definitions demand that a prophet be a soothsayer, I believe that a New Testament prophet will probably speak God's word for the above purposes more than for telling the future. (Though soothsaying is also still possible, this gift must be used carefully, and must be tested before placing spiritual 'weight' upon it) This encouragement should be for the church, not for the 'pumping up' of the people, nor for the edification of the prophet. Both the apostle and the prophet should be servants to the church, in the same manner as the evangelist, pastor and teacher. I have seen abuse and personal use of all 5 ministries, but I have also seen wonderful, godly application of them, too. I pray that the gifts of ministry will be poured upon the church of Jesus Christ in a fuller sense as we come closer to His glorious return. I hope this makes my viewpoint clear. Blessings and peace to you. In Jesus' name, charis |
||||||
11 | How do you define apostle? | Eph 4:11 | Mommapbs | 49203 | ||
Greetings Charis! I appreciated your post here as I was "searching" for info on apostle. I am confused when some denominations refer to the office of apostle as to me the Apostles were the Biblical variety as you described in your post. I recall asking a question early on in my forum participation about the use of prophecy and you gave a stern warning - thank you. I have tried to use my gift appropriately, for the edification of the body (which usually means individuals as my gift has been rejected corporately). God has been very patient with me; He continues to teach and instruct me and I have learned to discern His voice, however, when I receive something apart from Scripture, I am not sure what to do with it. For example, when my cousin was ill last year, God spoke to me in the night (was it a dream, I don not know?)and very clearly said, "Your cousin is broken." This left me with a sense of urgency about her and I called my father, who was in a position to visit and share spiritually with her. A few weeks later she died. I have had several such encounters with God. And as awesome as this is, I am "fearful" of pursuing this gift. So far, I just let God speak as HE chooses rather than placing myself in a position of agressively seeking knowlege apart from His Word. I would sincerely appreciate any counsel from you. In the Name of Jesus, AMEN! Mommapbs |
||||||