Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | mark d seyler | 183126 | ||
2 Cor 5 1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. While we will be resurrected in our own bodies, Job 19 25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me! There is nonetheless a great qualitative difference. 1 Cor 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. These bodies were made for life on earth. 1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. They will be re-made for life in the eternal realm. 1 Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. This "building from God", these are not the "mansions" as some suppose. As Paul speaks of the tent, he speaks of our earthly body, and as Paul speaks of this building not made with hands, he speaks of our eternal body. Those who sleep in Christ have put off their earthly body, and await being clothed with their eternal body. Those in Christ who are raptured will put on their eternal body without having put off their heavenly body. While Job says that he will see God in his own flesh, and with his own eyes, yet there is a qualitative difference in that flesh, and those eyes, to the extend that they are said by Paul to be "not made with hands", i.e., a work of man, as the body we were born with, but made by God. Yes, it will be my body, but not this body. This body is made for earth, a tent, temporary and transient. I have a new body coming, a permanent home, eternal in the heavens. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." |
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2 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | mark d seyler | 183132 | ||
Correction to previous post: While I wrote: "Those who sleep in Christ have put off their earthly body, and await being clothed with their eternal body. Those in Christ who are raptured will put on their eternal body without having put off their heavenly body." I meant to say: "Those who sleep in Christ have put off their earthly body, and await being clothed with their eternal body. Those in Christ who are raptured will put on their eternal body without having put off their EARTHLY body." My apologies! Mark |
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3 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | DocTrinsograce | 183140 | ||
Dear Mark, In the interests of fairness, we need to inform our readers that this belief in a "replacement body" is entirely unique to the teachings of Chuck Smith. I've previously researched the matter, yet I do not find any group outside of Calvary Chapel (historically or currently) defining the resurrection in this peculiar fashion. It by no means represents a concensus of Christian understanding of the Scriptural doctrine of the resurrection of the believer. In Him, Doc |
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4 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | mark d seyler | 183143 | ||
I’m not certain this would be accurate or fair. Even it it were accurate, and I do not believe that it is, as that does not match my experience, truth is not proven by counting heads of how many teach it. While I am not actually certain what you mean by a “replacement body”, since I did not use those words, but actually said things like, “While we will be resurrected in our own bodies,” and “They will be re-made for life in the eternal realm,” the Scripture says our bodies will be "changed. Its like Paul's example of the seed that grows into a plant. The plant that grows is not the seed that was put into the ground, although it came from that seed. Concerning having put of the earthly body, certainly you are not suggesting that those that have died in Christ are lying there in their corpses. That’s not a question, I know that is not what you mean. But equally so, the resurrection hasn’t happened yet. Are you suggesting that this is not something that I see for myself in Scripture, and that I am simply parroting what I have heard in church? I find that the research that needs to be done is to find what the Scripture says. I would simply counter that this teaching comes straight from Scripture, of which I referrence in my post. But if you disagree with my interpretation of Scripture, perhaps you might demonstrate how those Scriptures actually mean something else, other than what I am saying, using arguments that come from the text, instead of simply speaking against the source. Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | DocTrinsograce | 183147 | ||
Dear Mark, When we state things in a dogmatic fashion without openly identifying the roots of our presuppositions, we fail to properly give the uninitiated an opportunity to weigh our words. No Christian has all truth, but all Christians have some truth. God has graciously given us one another, encouraging our interaction and diversity, for our mutual edification prior to the full consummation of His promises in glory. We err exceedingly to presume to speak for all of Christendom, or leave others with the erroneous belief that there are no other perspectives. Regarding the "parroting" thing... I would never impugn the repetition of a doctrine so long as it is a sound doctrine! :-) Repetition is a necessary step, for example, in Bloom's taxonomy of learning behavior. But, no, I wasn't suggesting that you were at any particular level of educational abstraction. Chuck Smith writes, "Now, there are a lot of people that are hoping for some kind of a resurrection of this body in which it's presently living. I’m personally looking for a far superior model. Not a renewing or rejuvenating or whatever of this body. I’m ready to move out of the tent. I’m ready to move into the new house. The 'building of God, not made with hands.'" Regarding alternative interpretations, as you requested: "At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever. (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Job 19:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 15:42, 43)" --1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith "At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever." --Westminster Confession of Faith "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting." --Heidelberg Catechism "At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised." --Abstract of Principles "However many the bodies that will have been buried, and turned to dust, and mingled with the dust of the earth, they will all be raised, individually, completely, and universally." --Confession of Faith of Calvinistic Methodist "We believe, teach, and confess...the chief articles of our faith of Creation, of Redemption, of Sanctification, and the Resurrection of the flesh..." --Formula of Concord "...all the dead shall be raised out of the earth, and their soul joined and united with their proper bodies in which they formerly lived..." --Belgic Confession In Him, Doc |
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6 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | mark d seyler | 183149 | ||
Doc, I have simply quoted Scripture, and made brief comments showing my understanding of those texts. The presupposition that exists in my post is that Scripture is at once correct and harmonious. I presuppose that the correct hermeneutic is the “grammatico-historical” style (as I believe it is referred to), and that Scripture is intended by God to declare a certain and specific truth, that is knowable in the customary ways that we understand language in its variety of forms. While you appear to disagree with the doctrine I have described, I want to be perfectly clear that I am simply showing what the Bible says to the best of my understanding, based on the texts as I have presented. I am hoping that you will be able to separate my statements from statements made by others, and respond to mine, should you wish to, on their own merit, according to the text of Scripture. I will agree with you to stipulate that neither you nor I speak for “all Christianity”, and that we are both simply representing our own views, unless we are actually stating that we are presenting the views of another whom we may or may not agree with. Let’s be sure it’s on the record: Some people have different views on many and varied matters. Were you thinking that each of us should append this to each of our posts? Let’s say, for the sake of argument that I came to Scripture with a presupposition concerning its interpretation. My presupposition would not change what Scripture actually said, now would it? Therefore, we should be able to determine the truthfulness of a doctrine by seeing if it matches what Scripture actually says. The presupposition, should it exist, is to be judged according to Scripture. If it is found to agree with Scripture, then there is no issue with it. If it does not agree with Scripture, then it is shown to be flawed, and is discarded. The point is, though, that this is an unnecessary introduction to the discussion. Whether there are or not presuppositions does not affect whether the stated doctrine agrees with what Scripture says. The only instance that I can think of in which that is not true is if you hold the presupposition that Scripture is to interpreted according to standards or views that are not found in Scripture, and I do not believe that you think that, or are suggesting that. Whether a doctrine is sound or not should be determined exegetically from the Biblical text, not according to how many or few teach it, whether or not it is taught by someone whom you happen to personally disagree with on other points (or, in this case, appears similar to statements attributed to another), whether or not another person has poorly argued for it, or whether or not the conclusion agrees with previously held conclusions or even prejudice, should it exist. All of these are irrelevant to the discussion, and simply sidetrack from it. Each of these are considered logical fallacies, as I am certain that you understand. Concerning alternate interpretations, my actual request was, “. . . if you disagree with my interpretation of Scripture, perhaps you might demonstrate how those Scriptures actually mean something else, other than what I am saying, using arguments that come from the text . . . “ While you have restated other’s conclusions on this matter, without actual exegesis, well, I was already aware that people hold various views on this, as on pretty much all matters, though not all that you posted seem to disagree. As I review what you have quoted from these other men, I do not see a substantial difference, at least in what I wrote. But please, make no mistake: I believe in the resurrection of the body. Please, let’s end this where it began, as I stated in my initial post: “While we will be resurrected in our own bodies, Job 19 25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me! There is nonetheless a great qualitative difference.” I personally believe that everyone who has a Bible has exactly what they need to weigh my words. Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | Eternal in the Heavens | 2 Cor 5:2 | DocTrinsograce | 183153 | ||
If you are agreeing to take the "high road" it is appreciated, and will better reflect the charachter of Holy Spirit in our study efforts. Thanks again! | ||||||