Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does God "pass-over" or does He "harden" | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138239 | ||
For your consideration: I wanted to ask a question about the understanding of God’s giving of mercy and God’s hardening with a view to this verse: "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Romans 9:18, NASB95) I have heard people say this - referring to what is said in verse 13 (that God loved Jacob but hated Esau, not based on their work, but based on God’s choice) that they rest in the fact that their belief system is correct because of the question that always pops up. If God did actually choose to love Jacob and to hate Esau unconditionally - that is not based on anything they did or would do but wholly on God’s good pleasure then we say, “Hey, God can’t do that because that’s not fair!”, which is the exact same question the Apostle Paul gives in saying: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!" (Romans 9:14, NASB95). If God chooses one just because he wants to we feel it would not be just because, for example in this situation, no matter what Esau did God would not love him because God had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau and so basically Esau had no hope - and so we say - HEY THAT’S NOT FAIR! Does that make sense? I am not going to go into the depravity of man here - though I do believe man is fallen and has no ability to come to Christ on his own - as Christ said - believing is not our work but God’s, "Jesus answered and said to them, “ This is the work of God , that you believe in Him whom He has sent .” " (John 6:29, NASB95) And farther: "“ No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day . " (John 6:44, NASB95) Paul then expands on his argument in verse 18: "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Romans 9:18, NASB95) This is why God is not unjust - I won’t talk about why God is not unjust long - only to say if there are two criminals sentenced to death and a governor pardons one, the governor is not unjust but is merciful - both deserved to die one received justice and the other received non-justice, that is , mercy. So God can show mercy to one and justice to another - but the word here that Paul uses is not justice - it is hardens. Many would say this hardening referred to is a “passing over” by God (which I think is a very good use of words since they are borrowing words from the Exodus story of which Paul refers to in talking about Pharoah). But if that is the case - that God passes over some (passive) and shows mercy to others (active) then there is no question to raise against this position - all we need to think about is whether or not God is fair and we already know He is beyond any doubt. But there is a question raised by Paul - because he knew his readers would have a question for him - because they understood the word was not “pass over” but “hardens”. The question is this: "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” " (Romans 9:19, NASB95) To restate - If God hardens, making sure those who He has not shown mercy to go to hell (meaning that God commands them to follow but then actively causes them not to follow) and then on the flip side makes sure that those He has chosen to have mercy on go to heaven by actively working in their lives to make them follow His Word then this question comes - WHY DOES ANYONE GO TO HELL? HOW CAN GOD JUDGE ME, OR ANYONE FOR THAT FACT BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONE THAT MADE ME DO WHAT I DID. I SINNED BECAUSE HE MADE ME DO IT - OR I BELIEVED BECAUSE HE MADE ME DO IT. Does that make sense? That question does not even enter the mind if in fact God “passes over” people - is that not true? Tell me what you think - Does God pass over (passive) or does God harden (active)? |
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2 | Does God "pass-over" or does He "harden" | Rom 9:18 | Pastor Glenn | 138240 | ||
nwells, We must take all of scripture into consideration here. The vast majority is telling men of their own responsibility. If it was only a matter of God choosing who He wills, then 2/3rds of scripture would become meaningless. For instance, examine these scriptures for starters: Eze 18:25-32; 33:10-20, John 3:14-21, and Jer 31:29-30 Hope this helps, Pastor Glenn |
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3 | The question exists in Paul's Theology | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138259 | ||
I would agree with you - that the vast majority of the Scripture narrative deals with God's wrath towards those who do evil. But I would argue - Romans is not a story or God speaking directly to a group of people that He is going to wipe out or punish but it is a book about God and the way God works. So if in Romans it says that, "...it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. " (Romans 9:16, NASB95) Then we should look at the rest of Scripture through this filter - That God is the reason things happen the way they do - not because men made a choice to do them, but that God wanted it that way. The argument that if there is one molecule outside of God's control than God is not God, rather that molecule is. Because that one molecule might prevent Jesus from coming back - therefore it would be more powerful than God and God is no longer God because the very definition of God is one who is in control of everything. I do not negate man's responsibility - I only am pointing out that if God has nothing to do with those being damned than the question Paul raises would never be raised - for if Pharaoh went to hell because he hardened his heart then we say that is justice - but Paul is saying that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and so he went to hell - and then he raises the question - "If God did it, why does Pharaoh go to hell?" Do you see my reasoning? The question exists in Paul's Theology - should it not come up in our own? |
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4 | The question exists in Paul's Theology | Rom 9:18 | JCrichton | 138278 | ||
Hi, nwells! Your argument reminds me of a person who confessed to me that he was having trouble accepting God as a loving God and yet condemning people to Hell (he pointed out several Scriptural passages, including the devastation and wrath to come in Revelation)... God's Way is not easily understood... His Way differ from our finite comprehension so that we, in good intent, fall out of our Faith... To better understand what you are proposing (God's accountable for our wicked acts and desire because he controls all, all of the time, lest He losses His Authority...) read, carefully, Romans 9:1 through 11:32--specificly, pay close attention to 11:32! God has no need for us to perish (eternal damnation in Hell) and He states so unequivocally throughout Scripture (Isaiah 1:18-20; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Matthew 16:26; Luke 9:56; John 3:17-21)... it is our choice that free us or condemn us! And don't fret for those who died prior to the Word's incarnation... these people were truly unaware of Christ's Mercy, yet they too were taken into account by God's Salvific Plan! (1 Peter 3:18-20) God Bless! Angel |
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5 | The question exists in Paul's Theology | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138279 | ||
Actually Angel I am not having trouble accepting God as a loving God - you were not reading my question correctly - I see no problem in God hardening Pharaoh's heart - Pharaoh and everyone else in the world deserves to go to hell. Pharaoh will not be able to say in the end at judgment that God made him do it - for it was after all Pharaoh's greatest desire at the time to not follow God's command (but I say that God was the first causation and Pharaoh was the second - it was God who hardened Pharaoh to not follow His command and Pharaoh in responce to God's hardening desired to not follow God's command. Pharaoh was not outside the control of God but did exactly as God had him do - God is clean and is not the source of evil or sin but He hardens men in such a way to be sure of their damnation and yet men still bare full responcibility for their actions). My question is one of our view of how God has mercy and how God hardens people. You said: "it is our choice that free us or condemn us!" So I will ask you: Can a fallen man (meaning a sinner, before regeneration) do anything to please God? If he can - what can he do? Second, you said: "God has no need for us to perish (eternal damnation in Hell)" If God did not want people to go to hell, would anyone go to hell? Did the world turn out differently than God wanted it to? Meaning that sin entered the world and Christ was needed to redeem men? Would God do things differently if He created a second world? Or is everything as He wanted so that He would receive the most glory possible from his creation? Thanks for your time :) Oh one more thing - You said: "we, in good intent, fall out of our Faith.." This is one of the many reasons thinking that the choices men make are above God is dangerous - For if our faith, our choice to believe in Christ comes from us that means we can quit believing. But if our faith is a gift from God then, if we are truly His - no one and nothing will ever take us away from our beautiful Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If He is the author and the finisher - where is man in that? He started and so He will complete what He has started in me - I will not fail, because He started and so will work in me to become more like Him until the day I see Him face to face. |
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6 | The question exists in Paul's Theology | Rom 9:18 | Pastor Glenn | 138296 | ||
Hello Nwells, I wanted to respond to your two questions: 1. “My question is one of our view of how God has mercy and how God hardens people. …Can a fallen man (meaning a sinner, before regeneration) do anything to please God? If he can - what can he do?” There is another question that must be answered first because your question implies that faith comes only AFTER regeneration. Is this what you believe? Heb 11 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. If we believe as I do that faith comes first, then Heb 11:6 answers your question. If not then we cannot agree on this question. 2. “Second, you said: "God has no need for us to perish (eternal damnation in Hell)" If God did not want people to go to hell, would anyone go to hell?” Another scripture answers this: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Also: Eze 33 11 Say to them: "As I live,' says the Lord GOD, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?' Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: These scripture clearly answers your second question. God does NOT want people to go to hell, but many will. Remember also that Israel is God’s “Chosen” people, but all of them are not saved. Pastor Glenn |
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