Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | Radioman2 | 88972 | ||
We must keep the law in order to be saved? [Note: All of the following is a direct quote from (www.carm.org/dialogues/keep_law.htm)] This short dialogue was in a chat room on paltalk.com. He was rabidly against the teaching of once saved always saved. I began this dialogue with him after he said the following: If Calvinism is the gospel or supported the gospel, then it's followers could correctly call themselves Christians, but because it DENIES the gospel, then it's ANOTHER Gospel I'm not here to defend or deny Calvinism per se, but Calvinism does not deny the gospel which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The gospel is what saves us (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Larry (not his real name) is simply wrong. I began to dialogue with him about this issue and he said "Preachers today are teaching people to sin by teaching Luther and Calvin." Of course, this intrigued me and I began a conversation with him after he started talking about it being necessary to keep the law to be saved. Following is the brief conversation before he stopped talking to me. Matt: Must we keep the commandments of God to be saved? Larry: Yes, you must. Matt: Okay, then may I ask which commandments we must keep in order to become saved? Larry: All of them. Matt: Are you keeping all the commandments? Larry: I strive. Matt: Excuse me, but if you are striving, that means you are not keeping them all. Then doesn't that mean you are not saved? Larry: Why not let God judge? Matt: But, if you must keep all the commandments to be saved, and you are not keeping them, then doesn't that mean you aren't saved? Larry: Rahab lied to hide the spies, did she perish for lying? Matt: Are you saying it was okay for Rahab to lie? After all, if she did and she didn't go to hell, then she stayed saved without keeping the commandments. Larry: That's right. Matt: But isn't that a contradiction? You said you must keep the commandments and yet she did not and she is saved. So which is it? Must we keep the commandments to be saved or not? Larry: Go search out the book of the Lord and read. Matt: Are we justified by faith or by keeping the commandments? Larry: I already showed you the truth that Rahab lied and was JUSTIFIED for her faith, Matt: I know, but please be patient with me. Was Rahab's lie NOT a sin? Larry: No, it was not sin. Matt: If the Bible says to not lie and she lied, how could it not be a sin? Larry: Rahab was justified by faith. If you don't understand that, all I can say is that that is what the scriptures say. If you say that the scriptures contradict themselves, it appears so. But I do not believe so. Matt: So then, the lie of Rahab was not a lie? Larry: My advice to you is to pray about it and to ask the Lord to open it up to you. Matt: Are we justified by the law then? Larry: Look at what justified Abraham in James 2, but we are not justified by keeping the law. But Rahab, look at what Rahab did. She lied to save others and she was still justified. Matt: Are you saying that it is okay to lie depending on the situation? Larry: Yes, I am. Matt: Please excuse me, but it sounds like you are saying that grace allows us to sin since you said it was okay to lie depending on the situation. Larry: They said Paul was saying that too, but he wasn't any more than me. They said Paul preached "let us sin that grace may abound." No, he didn't teach sin that grace may abound, but he DID SAY that some said he said it. Matt: I see what you are typing Larry, but, I can't help but think that you are saying it is okay to lie, depending on the circumstance, because the grace of God allows us to. Is that right? Larry: You are saved by grace, and grace teaches, and you must obey grace. Preachers today are teaching people to sin by teaching Luther and Calvin. Matt: But, isn't grace that which is not of the law? Larry stopped talking to me at this point. I suspect it is because he cannot make his system of thought work very well. By way of correction, we are justified before God by faith, not by works (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9). The reason we do good works is because we are saved, not to get saved and not to keep ourselves saved. (www.carm.org/dialogues/keep_law.htm) |
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2 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | Mathew | 88986 | ||
Hello Radioman, Concerning this topic of once saved always saved. God will not take back what is freely given. But when does a person truly obtain salvation. God said that his reward is coming with him on the last day. Most men have not received this reward yet. Here are some scriptures to support my view: 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in Heaven for you 1Pe 1:5 by the power of God, having been kept through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time; Lam 3:26 It is good that one should hope for the salvation of Jehovah, even in silence. Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience. Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed. 1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen, you love; in whom not yet seeing, but believing in Him you exult with unspeakable joy, and having been glorified, 1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. You also state that we keep Gods commandments because we are saved. But know man has truly obtained it yet. Also in Eccl. God had even died for are sins yet, but it states Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep His commandments. For this is the whole duty of man. So salvation is not the modivation to keep Gods commandments. But obedience is. Here is how a person should take Gods promiss according to scripture. Phi 3:11 if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 My brothers, I do not count myself to have taken possession, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind and reaching forward to the things before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. Phi 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Phi 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling. Your Brother in Christ MaTT |
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3 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | BradK | 88992 | ||
Hi Mathew, You ask "But when does a person truly obtain salvation." First and foremost, Ps. 3:8 tells us "Salvation belongs to the Lord." I think there is a sense in which salvation is both present ( to those who belive) and future. Scripture tells us plainly in Eph. 2:8 ,2 Tim. 1:9 and Titus 3:5 that our salvation is an accomplished fact. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity," "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," Our future (salvation) is "to be in the presence of the Lord"( 2 Cor. 5:8). The Glorification in Romans 8:30 is both present and future: "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Speaking The Truth In Love, BradK |
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4 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | Mathew | 89003 | ||
Hello BradK, The scripture you posted was very profound. There is alot there, and Im still chewing on it;)...But from other scripture I read it sounds like are faith non-theless is on trial. 1Pe 1:7 so that the trial of your faith (being much more precious than that of gold that perishes, but being proven through fire) might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen, you love; in whom not yet seeing, but believing in Him you exult with unspeakable joy, and having been glorified, 1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. The end of our faith is the salvation of our bodies with the breath of life in them. Untill this event happens we all walk by faithfulness unto death and not with sight. I hold the view that every true beleiver must judge themselves so that God wont have to. 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad. 1Co 15:36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest). 1Co 15:38 And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body. 1Co 15:58 So that, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord. I beleive that God will raise our bodies(seed) as it has pleased him. Some to everlasting life, some not. But are work and our labor to the Lord is not in vain. For our labors bring forth fruit in the Lord. I beleive that each person will receive judgment on the thing he/she has sown in there own bodies. Wether it be good or bad. Im still open to new thought MaTT |
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5 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | BradK | 89042 | ||
Matthew, I'm glad those verses were of help:-) Rest assured the our salvation and position in Christ are secure!( Rom.8:38-39) However, scripture is also equally clear that our faith (not our salvation) will be tested. See James 1:2-3 and Romans 5:3-5. We only need to look at the ever-increasing persecution of Christians in other parts of the world to know that this indeed is true. We can thank God that we're not experiencing this type of persecution-yet! Speaking The Truth In Love, Bradk |
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6 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | Mathew | 89067 | ||
Hello BradK, You stated that we as Christians can rest assured that our salvation is secured. Because Rom.8:38-39 says that "nothing" can seperate us from the love of God. Does this statement mean that God never loved Pharoh or Judas. God loves "everything" that he created. Even though at times we made him feel sorry that he had created us. Gen 6:7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them. God loves all men but he hates sin. God doesnt chose us according to our good or bad works. But he does chose us according to our faithfulness. Also Rom.8:38-39 was refuring to Gods elect, not all men. Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies. Also these people have suffered with Christ in persecutions,famine,nakedness,ect..They also die all the day long to the flesh, and they are more than conquers. These are not double minded, lukewarm Christans. Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Rom 8:36 As it is written, "For Your sake we are killed all the day long. We are counted as sheep of slaughter." Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. But the faithless, wavering, double minded man should not think that he shall receive anything from the Lord. Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. I read Romans 8:1-12. And then after saying that we have Christ Spirit in us. And we are not of the flesh but of the Spirit. And because of Christ Spirit the body is dead. This same Spirit will also make my mortal body alive. So we are not debtors of the flesh to live according to the flesh. But then verse 13 says. Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. And then further on Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience. Concerning this verse: Rom 5:18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life. Verse 18 says all men are justified and verse 19 says that "many" not all shall be made righteous. So my conlusion so far is: That all men have been redeemed and bought with a price from the power of the first death because Christ so loved the whole world. But now we must stand faithful, unwavering, beleiving in hope. Waiting with patience the true adoption, and Salvation of our corrupt bodies. My only questions would be. Do you think that Christ blood saved "all" men from the power of the second death? And should we feel we have obtained the resurrection of the first death and escapaing the second even though we have not obtained?(Phill.3:11-15)How should a Christian work out his salvation? After all that said, I do beleive that God wants us to feel secure in our salvation. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the bible does tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I do however somewhat agree with the once saved always idea. Because of the fact that God forknew or predestined the end from the beginning before time began. Your friend MaTT |
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7 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | BradK | 89117 | ||
Hi Matthew, You ask many questions, my friend:-) I'll do my best to answer you as consisely as possible for times sake. You ask "Does this statement mean that God never loved Pharoh or Judas." The only answer I can give is to refer you to scripture itself in Romans 9:13-18. I might add a slight correction for your statement "But he does chose us according to our faithfulness". Remember, God is the faithful one, not us ( 2 Tim. 2:10, 1 Thess. 5:24) We are saved based upon our faith in what God promises, not our faithfulness. "Do you think that Christ blood saved "all" men from the power of the second death? " I believe His death was sufficient for all, though not all are "saved". I'm staying clear of the Cand A debate;-) We are saved by grace through faith when we believe upon Him. "How should a Christian work out his salvation?" Phil.2:12-13 answers this: " So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." I hope this helps. Speaking The Truth In Love, BradK |
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8 | Must we keep the law to be saved? | Rom 3:28 | Mathew | 89128 | ||
Thanks BradK, I can truly respect your views. I find it difficult to discredit the fact that a person can lose there salvation. But I still beleive that we all earnestly "wait" for the adoption of our bodies unto salvation. This is the only salvation that matters. This salvation and gift of immorality can not be taken away. If only there was a scripture that stated that we dont have to remain faithful to the end to inherit his promiss. I see it that Gods promiss was unto his children. Children of light and not children of darkness. I do know enough to understand the concept that Gods ways our higher than my own. And because of this I need Gods grace on a daly basis, not just on the last day of judgment. No man needs Gods grace any less than the next. It does seem to me that the fruit we bear matters though. At what point a person starts bearing bad fruit, I have no idea. Joh 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I do agree with you that we our saved according to our faith in Gods promisses. But not blind faith. Because I read that one person says they have faith. But another shows there faith by there faithfulness(works in the Lord). So if we are saved by faith in grace. The only question should be: What is true faith? You could also restate the "saved by faith in grace" statment. Maybe you could say that we are saved by our faithfulness that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, our propiation. But to harden our hearts to this fact at any moment is rejecting the Holy Ghost. and yes you have helped, MaTT |
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