Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | old versus new testament | Rom 3:1 | DocTrinsograce | 206733 | ||
Dear bowler, Do you understand that the word "catholic" means universal? It does not mean Romanism or the organization run out of the Vatican. Also, understand that our ability to do God's will is a matter of continual grace. It is an antinomy, but we strive for obedience because God grants us the ability and desire to be obedient. We have been granted the ability and desire to be obedient, therefore we strive for obedience. This does not mean that everyone baptized in the visible church are members of the invisible, universal church. This creed is speaking of those who are actually regenerate. The old divines would have -- and did -- choose different words. No doubt that their explanation would have stated things in such a way as to minimize confusion. But then, they were telling the world who they were some 1,100 years after the Council of Orange. See the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith: http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html In Him, Doc |
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2 | old versus new testament | Rom 3:1 | bowler | 206741 | ||
Doc Yes I do understand that the term "catholic" means universal, as in the "universal church" and that that is how it was being used in the Canons of Orange. However, the Canons of Orange were drafted by members of the Catholic Church in 529 with Caesaurius Arles, presding as head of the synod, and sent to Pope Boniface II for final approval. Which is why I did not hesitate to idenditify the end paragraph, which intimated that regeneration comes about by way of baptism, as being derived from "Roman Catholicism", as the Council of Orange sent the Canons to Pope Boniface II in 530 for final approval. The whole thing stemmed from St. Augustine's answer to Pelagianism. Augustine was Catholic, the members of the Council of Orange were all Catholic. Both Augustine and the church at the time taught baptismal regeneration as the process by which any came to be those "who are actually regenerate". Some of the oldest divines believed various things, both John Calvin and Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration "as the process by which that effectual grace of regeneration is conferred". But in the interests of not aruguing with you I will desist from setting forth a lengthy discourse with quotes to prove that and will leave off in qualifying my statement that that is what they taught and believed. I like your London Baptist Confession of Faith, thank you very much for all your very good links. And I have no doubt that other of the great divines did not teach baptismal regeneration as you so rightly say. blessings abound, bowler |
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3 | old versus new testament | Rom 3:1 | DocTrinsograce | 206761 | ||
Dear bowler, It is clear that you're getting most of your information on Baptismal regeneration from uninformed credo-baptist. I'm a credo-baptist myself. When one actually takes the time to read what they themselves wrote -- not read something said by others about what they wrote! -- it is clear that they do not believe that baptism has a salvific component. (As I stated in my earlier posts in this thread.) You won't find the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration in the Augsburg Confession (Lutheran) or in the Westminster Confession (Calvinism). It takes a lot of time and effort -- intellectual sweat, so to speak -- to study church history. However, since there so many others with all kinds of aberrant agendas, it is the only way. God was gracious to place us in a time where we have at our fingertips what those bunch of dead guys actually wrote, "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." (Ephesians 4:14 ESV) At one time the entire visible church might have been called "Roman Catholic." That certainly was the situation when the Council of Orange -- a council formed from all the churches in the world -- decided upon its canon. The Roman Catholic church, though much flawed, did not cease to be Christ's church until they officially anathematized the gospel in the Canons of the Council of Trent (Galatians 1:6-9). The Pelagian Controversy was extremely important, and remains important to us today. There are all kinds of synergistic soteriolgy being taught from pulpits everywhere. In Him, Doc |
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4 | old versus new testament | Rom 3:1 | bowler | 206821 | ||
Doc In the name and for the sake of Jesus, now I am going to have to qualify my statements to you. I pray to do so with grace. I am going to say this with the greatest respect for you and for the great divines okay? I got my information from John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and from Martin Luther's Commentary on Romans and not from uniformed credo-baptists at all. I was very careful to make sure that what I was saying was fact and not from secondary sources of the original authors. Quote, Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion 4, part 21 http: double front slash www.iclnet.org single front slash pub single front slash resources single front slash text single front slash ipb front slash e single front slash epl front slash 09 single front slash cvin4 front slash 21.txt Excerpts from John Calvin's Institutes - What heavier charge can be brought against their doctrine than the decree of the Council of Melita? Let him who says that baptism is given for the remission of sins only, and not in aid of future grace, be anathema. What was truly given in baptism, is falsely said to be given in the confirmation of it, that he may stealthily lead away the unwary from baptism. John Calvin was giving an answer to some saying that there are promises which are not obtained by baptism, but that after baptism greasy oil were applied to confer that grace of the Holy Spirit as the attainment of that grace. John Calvin argues that these same heretics are saying that baptism does not confer the grace which enables the believer to grow in Christ because they wrongly believe that one can be baptized and then receive a second grace with oil and a prayer without having first obtained faith. He differentiates elsewhere between faith, and grace and states that grace is obtained through baptism and says scripture upholds this principle. He clearly states that what is to be given at baptism is an aid of future grace. He also clearly believed that baptism was for remission of sins, and he did not refute that those whom he was speaking of did also as he says, Let him who says that baptism is given for the remission of sins only. Go to this link for John Calvin's Institutes on his defense for Paedobaptism - http: double front slash www.apuritansmind.com single front slash Baptism single front slash CalvinInfantBaptism.htm number sign 1. Direct qoute - http: double front slash www.tbaptist.com single front slash aab single front slash lutherbaptism.htm Luther and Baptismal Regeneration from Luther's Commentary on Romans In his commentary on Romans, Luther wrote concerning Romans 6:3, as follows We are not found in a state of perfection as soon as we have been baptized into Jesus Christ and His death. Having been baptized into His death, we merely strive to obtain the blessings of this death and to reach our goal of glory. Just so, when we are baptized into everlasting life and the kingdom of heaven, we do not at once fully possess its full wealth of blessings. We have merely taken the first steps to seek after eternal life. Baptism has been instituted that it should lead us to the blessings of this death and through such death to eternal life. Therefore it is necessary that we should be baptized into Jesus Christ and His death. Commentary On The Epistle To The Romans, By Martin Luther, translated by J. Theodore Mueller, page 85. According to Martin Luther baptism has the power to confer blessings Luther's Small Catechism Direct quote - http: double front slash www.sundayschoollessons.com single front slash baptism.htm See Next Post, bowler |
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