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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Morant61 | 11707 | ||
Greetings Schwartzkm! Hello my friend! I would have to respectfully disagree with your quoted statement. Even in English, the word "wine" didn’t come to mean an alcoholic beverage until about the mid 20th century. To back up my case in Scripture, I have provided the following word study. There are 11 words in the Old Testament which are translated "wine." There are 4 words in the New Testament which are translated "wine." Each of the words have slightly different meanings and can refer to the product of the grape in each of it’s various stages. The Strong’s numbers are included for each word. Old Testament Words 1) yayin (03196): This is the most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 140 times. It can refer to either a fermented or unfermented beverage. One example of a fermented beverage would be Gen. 9:21, where Noah became drunk. However, Jer. 40:10 uses this word to refer to the harvest of grapes, which is to be stored. One scholar, Dr. Robert Teachout, estimates that the word is used 71 times to refer to an unfermented juice and 70 times as a fermented beverage. 2) tiyrowsh (08492): This is the second most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 38 times. It always refers to a fresh pressed juice, with one possible exception. 3) shekar (07941): This word is used 23 times in the Old Testament. It seems to always refer to a fermented drink and it only used in two ways. The first is in condemnations and the second is in drink offerings (poured on the offering). 4) yeqeb (03342): This word is used 16 times and always refers to unfermented wine. It usually refers to the presses themselves or the fresh product of the presses. 5) Õashiyshah (0809): This word is used only 4 times. It is always translated by the KJV as a "flagon of wine." However, more modern translations translate it as "a raisin cake." Thus, it would refer to grapes themselves, not a beverage. 6) chamar (02562): This word is only used 6 times in the Old Testament. It is actually an Aramaic word. The context makes it difficult to decide how it is used. It seems to be used in both ways. It’s 2 occurances in Ezra probably refer to unfermented wine, while it’s 4 occurances in Daniel probably refer to fermented. 7) gath (01660): This word is only used 5 times. It always refers to the press itself. 8) mamcak (04469): Only used twice. Seems to always refer to a fermented drink. 9) cobeÕ (05435): Only used three times. Seems to refer to a fermented drink, but one which is soured or diluted. 10) chemer (02561): Only used twice. Always refers to unfermented fresh juice. 11) aciyc (06071): This word is used five times. It seems to refer to an unfermented sweetened or spiced drink, with one possible exception. New Testament Words 1) oinos (3631): This word is used 33 times in the New Testament. It is comparable to ‘yayin’ in that it can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. The prime example being Mt. 9:17, where the fresh new wine is to be put into a new bottle to keep it from fermenting. 2) gleukos (1098): This word is only used in Acts 2:13. Some have said that since the crowd was accusing them of being drunk that this had to be a fermented wine. However, the crowd was mocking them and the word usually refers to a fresh pressed juice. It could have been that they had a reputation for only drink fresh pressed juice and the crowd was making fun of them for it. 3) paroinos (3943): This word is only used twice and both times in a prohibition against drinking. It most likely refers to a fermented beverage. 4) oinophlugia (3632): This word is only used in 1 Peter 4:3 and refers to an excess of wine that some of engaged in in their past lives as unbelievers. It most likely refers to fermented wine. Conclusion: It simply is not true that "wine" always refers to an alcoholic beverage. It can refer to grapes. It can refer to fresh juice. It can refer to strong drink. It has a wide range of meanings. There only a couple of things that we are sure about. 1) It is not spoken of in a positive light in Scripture. 2) Priests, Kings, and Nazarites were forbidden to drink it. 3) It is described in Scripture as a destroyer. 4) It has destroyed countless lives throughout history. 5) Scripture clearly forbids drunkenness. 6) No one knows how to define drunkenness. 7) It causes people to lose self-control, not become more Christ-like. In light of this evidence, I have chosen not to drink any alcohol whatsoever. I am not on a crusade to promote my position. However, I do get irritated at so many scholars who fail to do their homework and just assume that the word "wine" meant then what it means now! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | water into wine | John 2:1 | userdoe220 | 11729 | ||
In referring to the passage in question: "Wine is wine is wine is wine" Jeffery Sief, Phd. You said it correclty, "it can refer to fermented and unfermented." In this passage I believe it was fermented. Please read Alfred Erdshiem (also a Jewish scholar like Jeffery Sief) who would very strongly disagree with your conclusion on this topic. Real wine (the kind with alcohol in it) is used today, as it has for 1,000's of years, in Jewish weddings. Only shallow, legalistic American Christainity has made it a "sin" to partake of wine(alcoholic kind.) I would agree that wine can make one stumble if taken in excess--hence the many warnings about abusing it in scripture--but nowhere is drinking alcohol forbidden. I really liked you study in the Hebrew word for wine (still not sure what relevance Hebrew is to the Greek language or the passage in question; nevertheless it was a nice study). |
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3 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Morant61 | 11744 | ||
Greetings Schwartzkm! I'm glad you enjoyed the word study! The relevance to the word study in both Old and New Testments was simply that many of the words used can refer to either state of fermentation. Some words cannot. The word used in the wedding feast at Cana is a generic word that can refer to either. So, one has to decide from the context and the rest of Scripture which kind Jesus made. I don't consider this a hugely important question, but it is fun to discuss. My opinion is based upon both experience and Scripture. Experience tells me how destructive alcohol is to humanity. We all agree that Scripture is clear on drunkeness being a sin. However, how do we apply that fact? If you are a pastor, and someone comes to you and says, "When do I say when?" What do you say? When is a person drunk? Does God go by Indiana state law? Does God simply go by whether or not the person feels drunk? I've known plenty of people who could barely walk and thought they weren't drunk. How about alcoholism? Do you believe that there is a genetic perdisposition for alcoholism? What if you, as a pastor, tell someone that it is okay to drink, and then find out that they are an alcoholic? What about our witness? Most non-Christians think it is a sin to drink? Would drinking harm our testimony? I just don't think that there is any real reason to drink, but there are plenty of practical reasons not to drink. Then there is Scripture to consider. There isn't anywhere in Scripture where people are encouraged or commanded to drink. However, there are plenty of passages warning against the dangers and or use of alcohol. I have yet to find any Scripture that commends the use of alcohol. Does alcohol make a person more Christ-like? Or, does it make us more likely to sin? Does it make us more disciplined and self-controlled? Or, does it make us lose control? It light of these consideration, I don't believe that Jesus created something that is described in the Old Testament in such negative terms. Consider the following quotes: 1) Prov. 20:1 - "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise." 2) Prov. 23:31-32: "Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! 32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper." We obviously don't agree on this issue, but that is okay. I'm very comfortable with my position. However, I don't see it as being "shallow and legalistic." As a pastor, I simply lay the Biblical case out there and the people to whom I am preaching have to decide for themselves. I have never yet seen anyone who didn't drink fail to glorify God because they didn't drink. But, I have seen people ruin their testimonies and even their lives because they did drink. I prefer to err on the side of caution. I'm really not missing out on anything. p.s. - I really believe that many scholars never take the time to really examine the Biblical data because the issue simply isn't that important to them or (in some cases) they want to justify their actions. I first because interested in the issue when I was a teenager. I had a good friend who got into alcohol, and then into drugs. He ruined his life. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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