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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Morant61 | 11707 | ||
Greetings Schwartzkm! Hello my friend! I would have to respectfully disagree with your quoted statement. Even in English, the word "wine" didn’t come to mean an alcoholic beverage until about the mid 20th century. To back up my case in Scripture, I have provided the following word study. There are 11 words in the Old Testament which are translated "wine." There are 4 words in the New Testament which are translated "wine." Each of the words have slightly different meanings and can refer to the product of the grape in each of it’s various stages. The Strong’s numbers are included for each word. Old Testament Words 1) yayin (03196): This is the most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 140 times. It can refer to either a fermented or unfermented beverage. One example of a fermented beverage would be Gen. 9:21, where Noah became drunk. However, Jer. 40:10 uses this word to refer to the harvest of grapes, which is to be stored. One scholar, Dr. Robert Teachout, estimates that the word is used 71 times to refer to an unfermented juice and 70 times as a fermented beverage. 2) tiyrowsh (08492): This is the second most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 38 times. It always refers to a fresh pressed juice, with one possible exception. 3) shekar (07941): This word is used 23 times in the Old Testament. It seems to always refer to a fermented drink and it only used in two ways. The first is in condemnations and the second is in drink offerings (poured on the offering). 4) yeqeb (03342): This word is used 16 times and always refers to unfermented wine. It usually refers to the presses themselves or the fresh product of the presses. 5) Õashiyshah (0809): This word is used only 4 times. It is always translated by the KJV as a "flagon of wine." However, more modern translations translate it as "a raisin cake." Thus, it would refer to grapes themselves, not a beverage. 6) chamar (02562): This word is only used 6 times in the Old Testament. It is actually an Aramaic word. The context makes it difficult to decide how it is used. It seems to be used in both ways. It’s 2 occurances in Ezra probably refer to unfermented wine, while it’s 4 occurances in Daniel probably refer to fermented. 7) gath (01660): This word is only used 5 times. It always refers to the press itself. 8) mamcak (04469): Only used twice. Seems to always refer to a fermented drink. 9) cobeÕ (05435): Only used three times. Seems to refer to a fermented drink, but one which is soured or diluted. 10) chemer (02561): Only used twice. Always refers to unfermented fresh juice. 11) aciyc (06071): This word is used five times. It seems to refer to an unfermented sweetened or spiced drink, with one possible exception. New Testament Words 1) oinos (3631): This word is used 33 times in the New Testament. It is comparable to ‘yayin’ in that it can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. The prime example being Mt. 9:17, where the fresh new wine is to be put into a new bottle to keep it from fermenting. 2) gleukos (1098): This word is only used in Acts 2:13. Some have said that since the crowd was accusing them of being drunk that this had to be a fermented wine. However, the crowd was mocking them and the word usually refers to a fresh pressed juice. It could have been that they had a reputation for only drink fresh pressed juice and the crowd was making fun of them for it. 3) paroinos (3943): This word is only used twice and both times in a prohibition against drinking. It most likely refers to a fermented beverage. 4) oinophlugia (3632): This word is only used in 1 Peter 4:3 and refers to an excess of wine that some of engaged in in their past lives as unbelievers. It most likely refers to fermented wine. Conclusion: It simply is not true that "wine" always refers to an alcoholic beverage. It can refer to grapes. It can refer to fresh juice. It can refer to strong drink. It has a wide range of meanings. There only a couple of things that we are sure about. 1) It is not spoken of in a positive light in Scripture. 2) Priests, Kings, and Nazarites were forbidden to drink it. 3) It is described in Scripture as a destroyer. 4) It has destroyed countless lives throughout history. 5) Scripture clearly forbids drunkenness. 6) No one knows how to define drunkenness. 7) It causes people to lose self-control, not become more Christ-like. In light of this evidence, I have chosen not to drink any alcohol whatsoever. I am not on a crusade to promote my position. However, I do get irritated at so many scholars who fail to do their homework and just assume that the word "wine" meant then what it means now! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Jim Dunne | 11965 | ||
Tim - This is really interesting - thanks for posting it. On your comment "Even in English, the word "wine" didn’t come to mean an alcoholic beverage until about the mid 20th century", that doesn't sound right to me. 19th century English literature is rife with references to wine, and it's pretty clear in context that the references are to an alcoholic beverage. Can you elaborate? I'll admit I'm no expert on either 1st century culture, or winemaking (g), but there are a couple of things I wanted to mention, and get your thoughts on here: 1. In Matthew 9:17, the reference to not putting new wine in old wineskins most likely has nothing to do with preventing fermentation. In fact, short of cooking (pasteurizing) or freezing grape juice, it's just about impossible to stop it from fermenting. If you purchase unpasteurized grape juice, and let it sit in your refrigerator, you will slow down the process somewhat, but you will ultimately end up with wine or vinegar. I visited the website for Welch's, arguably the "grape juice gurus", and found this interesting little factoid: "1869 - Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an "unfermented sacramental wine" for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry." 2. The reason that ancient winemakers didn't like to put new wine into old wineskins is that the fermentation process generates gases, which increase the pressure inside the wineskin, causing it to stretch and become brittle. If you reused a wineskin, there was a good chance the pressure buildup would cause the skin to split, ruining both wine and container. (Once fermentation was completed, old skins could be used as containers for the now stable beverage.) I don't claim this as an original to me - I swiped it out of Expositors Bible Commentary. 3. It's a common misconception that grapes are harvested, pressed into juice, and then some kind of fermentation agent is added to cause the transformation from juice to wine. It doesn't usually happen that way. The fermentation process generally starts while the grapes are still on the vine, and it's completely natural and unpreventable. "Table" grapes are intentionally harvested before this can happen, although it will still happen to them even after harvesting, if they're left too long. I really want to understand your point of view better. I certainly don't encourage alcohol consumption for anyone today, but I don't discourage it except when it's taken to excess. But I can't figure out how anyone in biblical times could avoid it. If you press ANY fruit into juice, you will very quickly get alcohol. I really do want to understand this better - help me out! Yours in Christ, Jim D. |
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3 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Morant61 | 11986 | ||
Greetings Jim! Thanks for the response! Allow me to briefly address your points. 1 and 2) There is not any doubt that the people in Bible times had no way to stop fermentation from occuring. However, there are historical records indicating methods of slowing the process. The new bottles served both purposes, slowing the process and perserving the product. Obviously, over time, fermentation would occur. The point of my post was not to deny that alcoholic wine existed, but simply to stress that the words which are translated "wine" have a wide variety of meanings. So it is important to know which word means what in which context. 3) You are absolutely correct that fermentation can actually being on the vine. However, natural fermentation is not very effective. Depending on the type of yeast in the grape, you may only get 6 percent alcohol in the wine. To make the alcohol content stronger, there are other additives which can be used. One concern I have always had is that we are comparing apples with oranges when we compare naturally occuring wine with modern alcohol. Most people who try to justify drinking alcohol are not wanting to simply drink a glass of 6 percent wine. They are drinking much stronger things than that! My personal opinion is that even if one doesn't believe that Scripture forbids drinking at all, it is still much safer and a better witness not to drink. Well, I've got to get a couple hours of sleep before church. God Bless! p.s. - I almost forgot! I'll have to check about the English word "wine." I was basing my comment on something I was told by someone who had lived through the depression. They shared with me that grape juice used to be called wine and that "wine" didn't come to mean alcohol until the mid 1900's. However, I'll have to verify that! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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