Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jn 14:14 Why "ask Me," instead of "ask" | John 14:14 | Hank | 171867 | ||
InHisLove: Our resident Greek scholar, Tim Moran, attests that the pronoun 'me' is in the Greek text of John 14:14, and so it is in the Greek text that Tim consulted. But I have every reason to think that Tim is using a text similar to, if not identical with, the Greek text (usually referred to as the Alexandrian Text) on which most contemporary translations of the New Testament have relied for more than a century. A notable exception among modern translations that has stayed closely to the manuscript tradition that supported the translation of the King James Bible is the New King James Version. This is the Byzantine Text, the tradition which by and large supports the Textus Receptus, and it was the Textus Receptus (Latin for "received text") that formed the basis for the translation of the King James Bible. ...... I must confess that I have never been comfortable with the Alexandrian Text. To cite in the briefest way possible some of my reasons, I quote from a segment of the "Preface" to the NKJV, as follows: "Since the 1880's most contemporary translations of the New Testament have relied upon a relatively few manuscripts discovered chiefly in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. SUCH TRANSLATIONS DEPEND PRIMARILY ON TWO MANUSCRIPTS, [emphasis mine] Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, because of their greater age. The Greek text obtained by using these sources and the related payyri (our most ancient manuscripts) is known as the Alexandrian Text. However, some scholars have grounds for doubting the faithfulness of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, since they often disagree with one another, and Sinaiticus exhibits excessive omission." ...... My question, to which my several years of research have led me to no definitive answer, is this: Why should I rely on a translation that is based largely on two manuscripts, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, which often disagree with one another, in preference to the traditional Byzantine Text of which there are many manuscripts extant? ....... So, InHisLove, the answer to your question lies, I believe, in this very thing: manuscript traditions. In the Byzantine Text family the prounoun 'me' does not appear in John 14:14; in the Alexandrian it does. So, going with the text that says, "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it" (which is the way KJV and NKJV render John 14:14), it ties in perfectly with the phrase of John 15:16 that says, "...whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give you" and with John 16:23, "...whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you." ...... You expressed apparent concern about the exegesis of the phrase 'in that day' that Jesus used in John 16:23. Jesus' disciples had been able to come to Him, look Him in the eye, and ask their questions and express their cares and concerns. "In that day" more than likely refers to the age that was ushered in by the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost -- a time when the Lord Jesus would no longer be with His disciples bodily, and they would no longer be able to ask Him questions as before. But were they left with no one to turn to? No! "Most assuredly," the Master told them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name He will give you." In that day, as in our day, it would be their privilege, as it is ours, to ask the Father. The Father would grant their requests for Jesus' sake. Not because they were worthy then and not because we are worthy now, but because the Lord Jesus was worthy then, and He is worthy still. InHisLove, I pray that I've not muddied the water too much for you but have, instead, added a little here and there that may help you in some small way. Blessings to you and agape. --Hank | ||||||
2 | Jn 14:14 Why "ask Me," instead of "ask" | John 14:14 | Morant61 | 171872 | ||
Greetings Hank! Good points my friend! You are correct that there are some textual variants involved in John 14:14. May I address a couple of your points. 1) Though it has often been claimed that the newer Greek texts are primarily based upon two text, this simply isn't true. Modern Greek texts are ecclectic and use all available sources. For instance, in John 14:14, The Alexandrian texts strongly support 'me', while theByzantine texts are divided on the point. 2) Secondly, I was also taught that manuscripts need to be weighed, not simply counted. Allow me to illustrate this point. Let's suppose that both of us are hired to transcribe a text. You, being the literate person that you are, take great care in your transcription and produce a high quality work. On the other hand, I was working all night and botched my transcription. But, I then used my scanner and made 50 copies of my transcription. Many years later, our manuscripts are discovered. Whose would be more reliable? Would mine be, simply because there were 50 copies? ;-) This is not to say that all Byzantine Texts are of poor quality, but there is historical evidence that these texts were deliberately standardized. Well, I have to get to bed my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Jn 14:14 Why "ask Me," instead of "ask" | John 14:14 | mark d seyler | 171890 | ||
Hi Tim, Something you said intrigued me. You wrote that there is historical evidence that the Byzantine texts were "standardized". Would that be akin to what we have done in the modern day, in an effort to produce a text as much like the original as we believe possible? Have we not collected mss. and from them produced a couple of versions of "standardized" texts? What are your thoughts on that? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Jn 14:14 Why "ask Me," instead of "ask" | John 14:14 | Hank | 171892 | ||
Astute observation/question Mark! If indeed some effort was made of old (we lack absolute proof of that, I fancy) to standardize the texts of the Byzantine tradition, why should this become a key issue with, as well as a main talking point of criticism of the Byzantine Text by, the Alexandrian Text boys? They're doing the same thing, aren't they? After all the smoke has cleared away, it remains an incontrovertible fact that the Alexandrian Text tradition rests upon its two featured stars, both of the flawed, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus, and these two disagree with one another in divers places. So, if the traditional text boys made a concerted effort to standardize, the critical text boys are still working on trying to get their act together and their text standarized. When they look down their supercilious noses at us traditional text guys, isn't it a case of the pot calling the kettle black? After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander -- or so "they" say! --Hank | ||||||