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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | father forgive them; they do not know | Luke 23:34 | wuu | 170654 | ||
I would like a short sermon/discussion on "father forgive them; they do not know what they are doing." The verse is Luke 23:34 | ||||||
2 | father forgive them; they do not know | Luke 23:34 | ebrain | 170655 | ||
What do you require a sermon for? the words speak for themselves. It's the same today,the unconverted do not know what they are doing, nor do they understand Scripture, see 1 Cor 2:14. If the Lord choses to convert them, then that if a different matter. |
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3 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | wuu | 170656 | ||
In this verse "Luke 23:34" is Jesus infering that the entire mankind did not know what they were doing? Was Jesus referring only specifically to the uncoverted? Is it possible that converts are also ignorant of the Lord's teachings/ways? | ||||||
4 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | ebrain | 170657 | ||
It is true that many christians are to some extent ignorant of our Lord's teaching, that however, is not what is happening here, Jesus is asking for forgivness for the ones who were killing Him, not however the Jewish Leaders, who knew full well what they were doing. |
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5 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170660 | ||
ebrain, You made the comment: “Jesus is asking for forgivness for the ones who were killing Him, not however the Jewish Leaders, who knew full well what they were doing.” Did all of them really, truly know? Would they, even the Jewish leaders, have really crucified the Messiah if they had known? The Messiah was their only hope and they knew that. So would they have knowingly put Him to death? 1Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Acts 3:17,18: 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 1Titus 1:13,14: 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. Albert Barnes shows the following in commentary on Acts 3:17: “That through ignorance ...Peter does not mean to affirm that they were innocent in having put him to death, for he had just proved the contrary, and he immediately proceeds to exhort them to repentance. But he means to say that their offence was mitigated by the fact that they were ignorant that he was the Messiah. The same thing the Saviour himself affirmed when dying, Luk_23:34; “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Compare Act_13:27; 1Co_2:8. The same thing the apostle Paul affirmed in relation to himself, as one of the reasons why he obtained pardon from the enormous crime of persecution, 1Ti_1:13. In cases like these, though crime might be mitigated, yet it was not taken entirely away. They were guilty of demanding that a man should be put to death who was declared innocent; they were urged on with ungovernable fury; they did it from contempt and malice; and the crime of murder remained, though they were ignorant that he was the Messiah. It is plainly implied that if they had put him to death knowing that he was the Messiah, and as the Messiah, there would have been no forgiveness. Compare Heb_10:26-29. Ignorance, therefore, is a circumstance which must always be taken into view in an estimate of crime. It is at the same time true that they had opportunity to know that he was the Messiah, but the mere fact that they were ignorant of it was still a mitigating circumstance in the estimate of their crime. There can be no doubt that the mass of the people had no fixed belief that he was the Messiah.” “As did also your rulers - Compare 1Co_2:8, where the apostle says that none of the princes of this world knew the wisdom of the gospel, for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. It is certain that the leading scribes and Pharisees were urged on by the most ungovernable fury and rage to put Jesus to death, even when they had abundant opportunity to know his true character. This was particularly the case with the high priest. But yet it was true that they did not believe that he was the Messiah. Their minds had been prejudiced. They had expected a prince and a conqueror. All their views of the Messiah were different from the character which Jesus manifested. And though they might have known that he was the Messiah; though he had given abundant proof of the fact, yet it is clear that they did not believe it. It is not credible that they would have put to death one whom they really believed to be the Christ. He was the hope, the only hope of their nation; and they would not have dared to imbrue their hands in the blood of him whom they really believed to be the illustrious personage so long promised and expected by their fathers…” – Albert Barnes Wouldn’t the forgiveness spoken of by Christ still be dependant on their individual repentance? I wonder if any of the Jewish leaders were present during: Act 2:37-41: v37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? I think it could be said that their ignorance was of their own doing since Christ provided sufficient evidence of who He was but yet they still closed their eyes to it. But in closing their eyes to the evidence Christ placed before them, it caused them to still not believe in their heart that He was the Messiah. So in their hearts and minds, could they have believed that they were crucifying their Savior? Not that any of it is excusable, but do you think, as I wonder, if God could have “winked” at some of these very people as He did the Gentiles? Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Since we have now been given the command to repent, does God no longer overlook the truly ignorant? WOS |
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6 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | ebrain | 170802 | ||
Thank you WOS for your post. In reply, let me ask you three questions. (1) When the high priest asked Jesus "are you the Christ", why did He not answer "yes", as he told us we must do, see Matt 5:37, but said "You have said so",? see Matt 26:64. (2) When the people at Matt 12:23, said "Can this be the Son of David", why did the Pharisees respond in the way that they did? see Matt 12:22-32. (3a) have a look at John 11:5-6, and tell me how can staying two days longer show Jesus's love for Lazarus, and his two sisters? (3b) Why did Jesus say at verse 15, "I am glad that I was not there"? |
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7 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170830 | ||
Dear ebrain, I’ll do my best to answer what you have asked of me so long as I can. 1. Because many of those things that were being claimed against Him were not worthy of an answer for one. But also see that as rendered in Mark, he did give His answer when asked directly if He was the Christ. Mark 14:61-62: 61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 2. To reject this claim to be Messiah, and to not believe He was who He was, they had to account for this miracle some other way. The reckoned it to be of the devil for this was not their Messiah, or what they perceived the Messiah to be, that was their claim. 3a. It wasn’t about His love for Lazarus or the sisters. Christ knew full and well what he wanted to do. It was about the glory, the very glory shown by Him raising Lazarus from the dead. Christ’s love however knew that Lazarus would be among the living again. The lack of urgency was to further display His glory. 3b. This same verse shows why he was glad. “to the intent ye may believe;”. This was all to give an account of who He was and is. I’m not denying that sufficient evidence was put forth for anyone who seen to believe. What I’m stating is that for the Jewish leaders, the Pharisee’s, to adamantly insist that Jesus be put to death, they could not have in their hearts believed that He was their Savior, for whatever reason. Their hearts were hardened, their minds were closed, their eyes were blind. On their own accord, probably? Decreed by a Sovereign God, most definitely. To quote Gill: “These knew nothing of the wisdom of the Gospel, or the wise counsels of God concerning salvation by Christ; they knew not the Messiah when he came, nor the prophecies concerning him; the Jews and their rulers did what they did through ignorance, and fulfilled those things they knew nothing of.” Again, I’m in no way claiming that anyone is relinquished from the responsibility for what was done, all I’m saying is that what was done was in ignorance. I find it so very hard to believe, that had they truly known, had their hearts been proper, their minds correct and their eyes wide open to the undeniable evidence that Christ placed before them, they would have crucified their long awaited and hoped for Messiah. What God so said, was fulfilled, that we know. But the intricacies of His effective means, I think, are only known in part. When Christ asked for forgiveness, it was for those who knew not. That included all the ignorant. The Scripture posted in my last note shows the ignorance and to what levels it was escalated as well as the Apostle’s realization of what it was. Their minds had been prejudiced, and not only theirs, but as well so many more. A Multi-part question for you if I may Brother; Why is it that you have deduced that the forgiveness was specific and not necessarily for any who would repent and what do you suppose would be the catalyst for the leaders, who longed for their Messiah, to fully reject Him had they truly known and what would that result be? WOS |
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8 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | ebrain | 170866 | ||
Thank you WOS for your reply. 1. Mark is only giving the gist of what Matthew, and Luke had to say at this point in the text. In Luke 22:70, in the ESV, it reads "You say that i am",and in Matthew 26:64, in the ESV, it reads, "You have said so". This in no way disagrees with Mark who is only giving a summation of what Jesus said, ie, Mark is saying that Jesus's words amount to an admission that He is indeed the Christ, and this could just as well be expressed by the statement "I AM", which in fact is what He was claiming anyway, even if He used different words. I believe that what our Lord intended to convey was that He knew exactly what they had said about Him in private, behind closed doors, ie, that they knew very well that He was in fact the Christ. "You have (past tense) said that i am". Now dealing with No's 2, and 3. The Pharisees taught that anyone could perform miracles who was empowered to do so by the Holy Spirit (Matt12:27), but that there were certain miracles that only the Messiah when He came would be able to preform. These miracles included, clensing the leper, (several instances), opening the eyes of a person born blind,(John 9:1-34), casting out a dumb spirit, (Matt 12:22-32), and raising the dead when that person had been dead at least three days, this last one explains John 11:5-6. and also verse 15. I hope that the above is of some help in explaining my view point. Every blessing. Edwin Brain. |
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9 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170886 | ||
Edwin, I thank you for your time and effort on this subject. I haven’t as of yet, but do plan to read the article you recommended and consider it as well. One thing for certain, I believe I’ll still find it hard to alter my position given the fact that the verses posted concerning the “ignorance” have yet to be reconciled with the subject claim. But know that I do plan to consider it all. To close, it seems apparent that Christ knew they wouldn’t believe and I think that is the key. Had there been belief, there could be no claim of ignorance on the part of the leaders from the Apostles. Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: John 10:24, 25: 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 1Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Acts 3:17,18: 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 1Titus 1:13,14: 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. Something that did peek my interest, when you stated: “I believe that what our Lord intended to convey was that He knew exactly what they had said about Him in private, behind closed doors, ie, that they knew very well that He was in fact the Christ. "You have (past tense) said that i am".” Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. I took the intent of the past tense here to be the immediate. Never did I consider that He was referring to anytime prior to this occasion of questioning. Thanks again Brother WOS |
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10 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | ebrain | 170893 | ||
Thank you WOS. I shall be off line untill Monday of next week, but have printed off what you have said, and will respond as soon as I can. God bless you. Edwin. |
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