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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | Makarios | 159416 | ||
Greetings Mark, If you read the quote that Kalos had posted, he indicated that it was Satan who does not want us to know those things that were indicated. In fact, I'm sure that Satan would rather that we did not consider the Bible at all. Blessings to you, Makarios |
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2 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | mark d seyler | 159421 | ||
Hi Makarios, As I am looking at Kalos' quote, if I insert a couple of words, I can make it say what you have written (if I understand you correctly). "Satan will do all he can to keep men out of the Book of Genesis, upon which fact all men will be held accountable (Rom. 1:20). He will also do all he can to keep men out of the Book of Revelation, because SCRIPTURES ABOUT end-time events, in particular the "hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10), will REVEAL WHAT IS determineD what will happen to Satan (Rev. 20:2) and who will rule the world (Rev. 11:15)." (Additions in ALL CAPS for clarity) Do you think that is what they meant to say? Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | Makarios | 159432 | ||
Greetings Mark, I have examined the Prewrath position very closely, and I know what it means and where Robert Van Kampen comes to the Prewrath position through Scripture. I do not want to sound rude, but instead of taking apart the paragraph that Kalos has posted, I believe that you possibly have not fully examined what we have posted in response to your position in the closest possibly way.. Do you have specific questions about the Prewrath position, and if so, what are they? Blessings to you, Makarios |
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4 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | mark d seyler | 159504 | ||
Hi Makarios, No offence taken, my friend! :-) Since my studies are conducted in your absence, you naturally have no idea how much or little time I have spent studing these matters. :-) I have spent literally hundreds of hours studying the rapture, over the course of several years. I have spent much of that time looking at the pre-wrath view. So much so that my wife rolls her eyes when I sit down to examine this material more. Studying Van Kampen's material, among others (Rosenthal, Rev. Best) has served to strengthen my Pre-Trib view, as I continue to study what the Scriptures actually say. The fact is, (and now, I do not want to sound rude) I hardly know where to start to show the errors in Van Kampen's material. Of the many posts I have posted in the past calling into question the solagroup material, showing discrepancies in their interpretations, misquotes of scripture, and interpretations that arbitrarily reject the plain reading of scripture without a textual foundation, of all the times I have questioned this material, none have been answered or addressed. The more I study this material, the more problems I find. I will have some additional material to share regarding what I have read last night from the solagroup article referrenced by Kalos. I believe that I understand the pre-wrath position, and I even briefly believed that it was correct as I examined the teaching, until I realized the many difficulties with this view that simply cannot be reconciled to scripture. What surprised me was the personal nature of the assault against pretribulationists that is presented by the solagroup site. Should you wish to review some of the questions I have asked regarding the pre-wrath view, several can be referrenced by searching "solagroup" and "revelationcommentary", under posts with my name. The pre-wrath view, and its proponents, are very close to my heart, because the pre-wrath teaching gets a lot right that a lot of pre-tribulationists get wrong. The are so close! Anyway, I am intending to post more material on this subject. Please examine what I say, and let me know if you find anything that is misquoted, or not correctly handled. We will both grow from the experiences. Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | mark d seyler | 159513 | ||
(Quoted fromt the Solagroup article) "WHAT IS PRETRIB'S ORIGIN? First of all, pretribulationism didn't exist before 1830 and there is considerable documentary proof that it was initially introduced in England by Edward Irving, the father of the charismatic Apostolic Church and not John Darby. Edward Irving probably picked up the idea of an "any moment rapture" from his work on the translation of Emanuel Lucunza's book, The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty, a Catholic priest who initially wrote the book in Spanish under the pen name of Rabbi Ben Ezra. In reality, with whom the pretribulationism position originated really does not make that much difference other than the fact that it contradicts the first 1800 years of prophetic thought and contradicts the plain teaching of the New Testament. On the other had, the basic tenant of prewrath (that the Church will undergo the persecution of Antichrist before the return of Christ) was taught clearly and consistently by early Church fathers. Among the evangelicals, what other basic doctrine of Scripture, other than pretribulationism, has been "discovered" in the past 160 years and directly contradicts the basic, accepted teachings (as a whole) of the early church fathers? There is none. Some will tell you that pretribulationism is a result of "progressive revelation," but look out. There is a lot of baggage when you take that position. Where do you stop and who decides where? The revelation of God ceased with the completion of Scriptures." My Response: The early church writings are not actually a deciding factor whether pretrib or prewrath (mid-trib) is correct. Most of the Jews, including Jesus’ disciples, did not understand that Jesus would come once as a Suffering Servent, and again as Reigning King. A few did understand, but many of their teachers, ant the time Jesus was born, taught many different things, and the truth was a minority position. Is it any wonder that we find the same thing happening today? But just because a certain person taught or did not teach [aside from what is in the Bible] a particular thing does not have a specific bearing on the teaching of scripture itself. To claim that some will say that “pretribulationism is a result of "progressive revelation" mis-represents the truth. It is not “progressive revelation”, it is a matter of greater understanding though years of study. We have seen this with other doctrines as the church has spent centuries developing doctrines of Christ, the Trinity, the church, and more. Check the early church father’s teachings of the Trinity. They are all over the map. This notwithstanding, the early church, to the best of my knowledge, did not teach any type of mid-trib (prewrath) or pre-trib rapture. The early church teachings regarding the end of the age, and the gathering of the saint to Jesus, were what we would call “post-trib”. Therefore, to declare “pre-wrath” to be more comparable to the the early church “post-trib” than “pre-trib” is misleading. Both differ from the early-church “post-trib” in the same way, just to different degrees. Both pre-trib and pre-wrath (mid-trib) teach that the church is removed not at the actual end of the 70th Week, as the early church taught, but at some time before that. Various people have realized from scripture that the clear teaching of the Bible is incompatible with the idea that the church would be on the earth past a certain time (the time of wrath). The time of the church’s removal has been adjusted accordingly. According the the timing indicators given in Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah, the wrath of God comes at the beginning of the 70th week. Pre-wrath rearranges the Revelation prophecies so that the “wrath of God” only comes at the end of the 70th week. Pre-wrath teaching did not in fact exist until late in the 20th century, and so pre-trib is actually an older teaching. This is easy to verify, just search for pre-wrath teaching, and check the authors, teachers, and the dates. Do a similar search of pre-trib teaching, and compare. For more information, you can contact me at markdseyler@yahoo.com |
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6 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | Morant61 | 159514 | ||
Greetings Mark! Here is a repost of an old post of mine concerning the historical evidence for the Pre-Trib position. *************************************** Response........................................ Greetings Kalos! From the reading I have done, it seems that post-tribulationists have tried very hard to make it seem that a pre-tribulational rapture is a recent deveolopment in theology. However, there is evidence dating from between 300-600 a.d. of a pre-tribulational rapture. This evidence is found in a document called "Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon." Here is a quote which discusses the nature of this document: ******************************************** "The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin." (http://millennianet.com/atpro4se/ancient.html) ********************************************** The relevant quotation is quoted below: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)" The true authorship and the quality of the document are not really that important for this discussion. The important part is that we have a clear pre-tribulational statement dating over 1000 years before Darby or Margaret McDonald. Thus, the belief itself has been around for much longer than 150 years. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Questions for a Pretribulationist | Matt 24:22 | mark d seyler | 159516 | ||
Thank you, Tim! I had heard of that quote, but I didn't know enough to be able to track it down. Thank you for sharing it with us. It certainly is a very clear statement. Love in Christ, Mark |
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