Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169244 | ||
Dear Jeff, I know that better minds than mine have grappled with this for centuries. I think there is a part we are not told, or that we simply are not able to grasp a spiritual truth describing "eternal" events (i.e. outside of space/time). No matter how far I think I may understand this, there is always the other set of verses. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | hobbs | 169277 | ||
Dear Mark, John Piper has written on this very issue that you've been discussing. I have found it invaluable in my quest to know God and to think His thoughts after me. http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html God Bless, John |
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3 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169282 | ||
Hi John, But could not God's grace be equally glorified by the salvation of another 1000 souls? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | hobbs | 169288 | ||
Hi Mark, You asked, "But could not God's grace be equally glorified by the salvation of another 1000 souls?" Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; Rom 9:28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." Rom 9:29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH." He is glorified in in His justice as well as in His mercy. Did you have a chance to read Piper's article? John |
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5 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169293 | ||
Hi John, I would say that God is glorified in everything He does. I did read Piper's article. He gave a succinct presentation of this view, which, in my opinion, does not account for many Scriptures. As the ones you have quoted, there are many many Scriptures we can quote regarding election. But there are a number of other Scriptures that this view of election does not accomodate. And so I will maintain that a theology that does not accomodate all relevant passages cannot be a full and correct representation. One simple example is this: Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! This passage declares the will of God, what God wants, to gather the children of Jerusalem together as a hen gathers her chicks. It also tells us that this does not happen, and why it doesn't happen. Because the children of Jerusalem "would not have it". Piper writes: "Since not all people are saved we must choose whether we believe (with the Arminians) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to human self-determination or whether we believe (with the Calvinists) that God's will to save all people is restrained by his commitment to the glorification of his sovereign grace" This is central to what Jeff and I were discussing yesterday. But in this passage in Luke, it seems very clear that God has restrained His will due to a commitment to human self-determinism - "but you would not." Piper states that God does not in fact do this, and yet the Scriptures show that in fact He does. Throughout the Bible, God appeals to man to choose Him, an absolutely meaningless appeal if man's choice is not involved with his salvation. Please do not mis-understand me. I believe everything in the Bible, including election. I do not claim to understand how these things all work together. I simply know that any answer we give to these questions must harmonize will all portions of Scripture, and not just with our list of proof-texts. I have not yet heard an answer that does. This forum has grappled with this question fruitlessly. As has the church for centuries. If you are comfortable with the answer you have found, praise the Lord! I rejoice in our salvation, and I give the glory to God! If my choice had something to do with it, He gave to me the ability to choose. Love in Christ, Mark |
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6 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | hobbs | 169295 | ||
Dear Mark, Thank you for your reply. The fact that you took the time and effort to read the article shows me that you are a serious student of Scripture. I have a diffent interpretation. Luke 13:31 Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, "Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You." Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' Luke 13:33 "Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! than yours. A careful reading of vv 31-34 identifies the Pharisses as those who "would not have it" (NASB). |
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7 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169296 | ||
Hi John, Do you intend to imply that if someone has reached a different conclusion from this Scripture, that it is a "less than careful" reading? Notwithstanding... It is not just the Pharisees who killed prophets, many were guilty of that. But let's say that your interpretation is correct. This would still be a Scripture that has God saying that there is something He wants (to gather together the children of Jerusalem), but "someone" (be it the Pharisees, or whomever) would not have it. This Scripture shows a desire of God denied by someone other than God. I simply do not see any other way to look at it, no matter how you label the various parties. Were the Pharisees stronger than God? Of course not! So God allowed Himself to not have what He wanted, because of the choice of others. Love in Christ, Mark PS - The Word is my life. There is nothing more important to me, Nothing, then attaining a full and correct understanding of the Holy Scriptures, because in this way, I shall be able to know and to serve my God. I'm not afraid to be wrong. I am afraid of being wrong and not realizing it. |
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8 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | hobbs | 169303 | ||
Hi Mark, You asked "Do you intend to imply that if someone has reached a different conclusion from this Scripture, that it is a "less than careful" reading? Yes, I did, and I apologize for thinking that way. Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11) and Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24) and the Jews' "Crucify! Crucify him!" (Luke 23:21) and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints: Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place. The above is an example from Piper's article. It clearly shows that God does accompish His perfect will. He never is frustrated or defeated by the choices of the wicked! Take Joseph's brothers for example. When they sold Joseph into slavery, onthe one hand it was becasue they chose to sell him. On the other hand, it was part of God's plan for saving many people. His ways are NOT our ways! We won't ever understand Him better if we continue to interpret Him from our human perspective. "Herod, Pilate, the soldiers and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God."-Piper Job 8:9 "For we are only of yesterday and know nothing, Because our days on earth are as a shadow. John |
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9 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169306 | ||
John, Hooray for you! for your honest and gracious response, which means more to me than you may know! No offence, my brother. I agree with the example you give. The Father sent His Son to die, and used the choices of evil men to accomplish His purpose. The Bible is clear on that point. And yet it is equally clear the point make in Luke 13, as we have seen. I will agree completely with you, His ways are not our ways, and it does not surprise me to realize that there are things about Him that we can't understand. He's big. Really, really big! And I am small. Really, really small! John, I appreciate this discussion with you. The further we go, the more I learn. I will not have internet access over the weekend, so we may need to continue on Monday. So, til then! Love in Christ, Mark |
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10 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | hobbs | 169319 | ||
Thanks for your encourgement Mark. We all need a lift from time to time. God Bless, John |
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