Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169128 | ||
Greetings Kalos, This is certainly a question worthy of consideration for all Christians. Exactly what is called for and expected of us regarding what many consider our greatest responsibility toward men. Personally, I have always heard it preached and taught to mean that EVERY individual will hear and have the opportunity to believe. That the “great commission” in fact is the command to go and tell every individual the good new of Christ. Not my understanding at all however, and not, I believe, consistent within the context of scripture as a whole. Some points to ponder: 1. While it is true that today’s technology offers significant opportunity to reach the masses in a way never imagined in biblical times, it falls far short of being able to speak to every individual. Hundreds of thousands of people live without the most simple means of communication such as telephone, radio, television. Many of those are also unable to read and write even in their own language. In spite of the advances of technology, we continue to be unable to locate some individuals, even ones that we know by name and are seeking (e.g., Osama Bin Laden). One may argue, he does not want to be found. The same is true for many individuals concerning the gospel. 2. Consider the conversion of Paul (Saul). It was a very dramatic event. He was not alone. Yet in the company of men, he was the only one to hear the “voice” and “words” of Christ and be called. Why did the Lord not give all who were there the opportunity to hear and believe on that dusty road to Damascus? We can wonder, but it is not our place to question who and why God calls this one and that one He does not. 3. One more point. Consider the words of Jesus spoken to the twelve when he sent them out to the people: Mat 10:12 As you enter the house, greet it. Mat 10:13 If the house is receptive, let your blessing of peace come on it. But if it isn't receptive, let your blessing of peace return to you. Mat 10:14 If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet. Mat 10:15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!" Jesus doesn’t tell them to make personal contact with each and every person in the towns, or even in the specific houses for that matter. Quite the contrary. When asking the question: “what does ‘This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations...”, what is the best answer supported by scripture? Simply, that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the WHOLE WORLD, and to ALL NATIONS. Since it doesn’t say -to every person- then we shouldn’t attempt to make it say that. This should not, of course, keep us from the effort of reaching as many as each of us INDIVIDUALLY can however. It has not been given to us to know that this one has been called and empowered to believe and that one has not. My once and a half cents worth, Jeff |
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2 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | kalos | 169176 | ||
Jeff: Your post, ID# 169128, has made my day. Your answer to my question is excellent: "Simply, that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the WHOLE WORLD, and to ALL NATIONS. Since it doesn’t say -to every person- then we shouldn’t attempt to make it say that." Like you, I had always heard Matthew 24:14 preached and taught to mean that EVERY individual will hear and have the opportunity to believe. But, as you said, since it doesn't say that, then we shouldn't attempt to make it say that. Someone has implied that since the great commission instructs us to preach the gospel to every creature and since God does not command without enabling, then this verse must mean that every last individual must hear the gospel before the end comes. But I don't agree with their conclusion. It is true that the Great Commission is to preach the gospel to every creature. It is also true that God enables us to do what he commands us to do. However, it is my view that commissioning a thing and enabling us to do a thing does not guarantee that the thing will get done by everyone and to/for everyone for whom it is meant. God has commanded and enabled us to do many things, but are they accomplished universally, i.e. in or by every believer? No, they are not. I have enjoyed your forum posts for a long time now. Keep them coming. I appreciate the replies from all of you who addressed my question, whether your choice was a, b, or not specified. Grace and peace to you, Kalos |
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3 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169183 | ||
Hi Kalos, Thanks for the response. It's interesting; you write: "it is my view that commissioning a thing and enabling us to do a thing does not guarantee that the thing will get done by everyone and to/for everyone for whom it is meant. God has commanded and enabled us to do many things, but are they accomplished universally, i.e. in or by every believer? No, they are not." It is along these lines that I continue to have one of my most significant struggles with understanding something about God and scripture. In the bible it says that it is God's will that all be saved. Yet we know from the bible that all will not be saved. How can this be, that God's clearly stated will, will not come to pass? And when we consider the doctrines of election and predestination, how do we reconcile them with God willing that all be saved? I have read the commentaries, books on theology and doctrine, forum posts, and been involved in many face-to-face discussions. Certainly I have grown in my understanding, but honestly, a lot of what I believe in a lot of areas, is based on faith alone, and not a clear understanding of how certain doctrines have been arrived at. I am completely secure with my belief that the bible is the very word of God and our only source for truth and revelation of God. There is still so much that I don't grasp. I trust that He will reveal what He intends to reveal to me in the appropriate time and servings that He knows is best. That's comforting. I can only continue to work toward a deeper level of faithfullness in my study and seeking Him. Look forward to continuing to follow your postings, Jeff |
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4 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | Aspiring Overseer | 169215 | ||
Jeff, 1 Timothy 2:3-5 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. NAS Please excuse my butting-in, but I believe the reconciliation of God's desire for all to be saved and the fact that few are is explainable by one thing: choice. Acts 17:25-27 26 and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; NAS God created all of mankind to seek Him in accordance with knowledge (Acts 17:24-28; Ro 10:2). While He desires that each one of his creations would seek Him, He knows that few will. Not by His design, but by their choice. In other words, He has designed each person with the ability to reason and desires that they should use that ability to serve Him (Is 1:18)! If they chose to serve something else, whatever their outward actions, they must bear the consequences. Whether the bushman continuing to practice the religion of his parents or the atheist who holds themselves as supreme, both, as God's creation, have the opportunity for salvation, but they must first chose to seek it! Matthew 6:33-34 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. NAS P.S. I appreciate your approach to scripture and look forward to future discussion. AO |
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5 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169232 | ||
Hello AO, Always feel free to "butt-in". I always appreciate any feedback I can get. Yes, this was my point. What you have presented here, including the verses, is one side of the difficulty. I appreciate your input. But you wrote: "Please excuse my butting-in, but I believe the reconciliation of God's desire for all to be saved and the fact that few are is explainable by one thing: choice." But that was not what I indicated as my struggle. My struggle is reconciling the issue between God's will for all to be saved, and the doctrines of election and predestination. The general question being: If God desires that all be saved, then why is it that all were not elected/predestined to salvation? Please understand that I ask the question as a starting point for my own search for understanding (and because it is legitimately there in my mind), and not as a means of bringing doubt on any established doctrine; and certainly never in an attempt to call something contradicting. The word of God has no contradictions in so far as the Truth is condidered. So, Choice, Free Will, Election, Predestination, etc., etc., All are taught in the bible. All are true. How they all work together, or, what is true about them as they relate, is the understanding that I am working toward. I have spent years considering these issues. I have spent a significant amount of time under various preachers and teacher, and have read a considerable amount of literature that comments on these things. Much of it has become clear to me and my understanding grows continually. But many mysteries remain. Finally, on the surface your "reconciliation" appears logical and has some basic scripture to support it. Are you aware that there are a considerable number of bible scholars and theologians that disagree with your findings? Furhtermore, are you aware that long-established christian doctrines diagree with you? Thanks again for your post, Jeff |
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6 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169235 | ||
Hi Jeff, Here may be food for thought for you. Isaiah 42:1 Behold My Servant; I will uphold Him; My Elect in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring forth justice to the nations. Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ, Eph 1:4 even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Isaiah writes that Jesus is God's Elect. Paul writes that we are elect in Jesus. I also have been working towards an understanding of this issue, and have not found an answer that takes into account all relevant Scriptures. Predestination applies to the elect, so it is less relevent towards a conclusion. Once we understand election, predestination is easy. The core issue is Divine Election and Human Choice. As you have written, God has said that He would like all men saved, and all to be in right relationship with Him. I believe that of the God Who declares Himself to BE Love, and Who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So then why oh why would He not choose all of those whom He would like to be saved for salvation? The only way this makes sense is if there is another criteria involved in God's election beyond His independant wish for man. There must be another qualifier. Some will raise the cry that this offends His sovereignty, but not if He has decreed it to be that way. He always plays by His own rules. So I quote these passages, and offer them for meditation. Isaiah 42:1 Behold My Servant; I will uphold Him; My Elect in whom My soul delights! Eph 1:4 even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world What is it about Divine Election, and what is it about Human Choice, that make them seem incompatible with each other? And what is the significance of "before the foundation of the world"? Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169243 | ||
Hello Mark, Thanks brother, for the input. This seems to illustrate my point, or should I say, my struggle in understanding; an apparent contradiction as seen through the eyes of this fallible man. I rest in my confidence in the scriptures, however, that there are no contradictions, only lack of knowledge and understanding on the part of men. You write: “So then why oh why would He not choose all of those whom He would like to be saved for salvation? The only way this makes sense is if there is another criteria involved in God's election beyond His independant wish for man. There must be another qualifier. “ ”Some will raise the cry that this offends His sovereignty, but not if He has decreed it to be that way. He always plays by His own rules.” I would agree with you that there is no imposition on God’s sovereignty if in fact He did decree “another criteria….beyond His independent wish…” But do we find this in scripture? Thanks for your insight and the verses for consideration. Of course, I have considered these verses along with many more. For example, here is another that seems to suggest that there is no other criteria, and that God’s decree was and is consistent with the commonly held understanding of the doctrine of predestination/election. Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED to eternal life believed. ESV (emphasis added) Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed. KJV (emphasis added) This one is tough to explain in contradiction with the doctrines of election and predestination. Personally, I haven’t seen anyone try. God bless and continue to work toward deeper understanding as I do also, Jeff |
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8 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | mark d seyler | 169244 | ||
Dear Jeff, I know that better minds than mine have grappled with this for centuries. I think there is a part we are not told, or that we simply are not able to grasp a spiritual truth describing "eternal" events (i.e. outside of space/time). No matter how far I think I may understand this, there is always the other set of verses. Love in Christ, Mark |
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9 | Every NATION or every PERSON? | Matt 24:14 | jlhetrick | 169246 | ||
Your right Mark, Thankfully we can rest in the knowledge that we do have. That God is perfect and His ways are perfect, and He didn't miss any details. I believe that when we are finally with Him in eternity, many of us will likely be surprised at how much of it we actually had wrong. Regardless of this particular issue, I believe that God has called me, and whether my choosing has anything to do with it, I freely choose Him anyway. I'm thankful. I'm grateful. Peace and Love, Jeff |
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