Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | kalos | 20074 | ||
Ray: No criticism intended, but if you were to ask me if I thought God had a common name, I would be unable to answer. First I would need to know what you mean by "a common name" for God. Grace to you. |
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2 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | Ray | 20080 | ||
Hi kalos, Thanks for entering in. I'm pretty far removed from English classes; is there such a thing as a proper "pronoun"? I might have to stay with my "pronouns of Deity".:) Can you think of any common nouns concerning God? | ||||||
3 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | kalos | 20157 | ||
Hello, Ray! It's very good to hear from you. Let me start you with the following definitions and examples of proper nouns and common nouns. If you need further clarification as to your specific questions, just let me know. (By definition, I don't think there's such a thing as a proper "pronoun." But I'm not sure. The real English expert here is our friend Hank. :-) Grace to you, brother, kalos NOUN - A word that names a person, place, or thing. Proper nouns name a particular person, place, or thing. Proper nouns always start with a capital letter. 1. Betsy Ross 5. Liberty Island 2. New York 6. John Duncan 3. Uncle Sam 7. U.S. Capitol 4. Labor Day 8. Liberty Bell Common nouns name any person, place, or thing. Common nouns always start with a lower-case letter. 9. war 13. harbor 10. stars 14. ferry 11. flag 15. timeline 12. writer 16. stripes (http://wizard.hprtec.org/builder/worksheet.php3?ID[equals sign]248) Note: you will have to change the web address before you cut and paste it into your address bar. Replace "[equals sign]" with the actual equals sign (two parallel horizontal lines, below the plus sign on your top row of keys on your keyboard). |
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4 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | Ray | 20175 | ||
Hi kalos, Thanks for the English lesson. My application led me to 2 Samuel 22. In the first three verses it seems to give a list of common nouns concerning Deity. "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; NASB, "The God of my strength, in whom I will trust."NKJ. "My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge;" All common nouns, right? rock,fortress,deliverer,strength,shield,horn,stronghold,and my refuge. The list seems to go on for the NASB for verse 3b says, "My savior, Thou dost save me from violence." So here is the first test for the class. Is savior part of the list or is he indeed talking to his particular, personal Savior as the NKJ interprets? Now as far as Hosea 13:4 is concerned, I interpret it thus, "And you were not to know any God except Me, For there is no Savior besides Me." 2 Samuel 22:32 says, "For who is God, besides the Lord? And who is a rock, besides our God?" NASB, NKJ similar but with except. *** I think that this shows that God is God and that He can be thought of as a "common" rock;or refuge, or stronghold, or other nouns as door, shepherd, vine, etc. However, I haven't decided on whether rock is a proper noun or not here. Both NASB and NKJ have it as a rock. What is equally as important to see is that these can be personalized and made a particular Person and thus proper nouns. For instance, the savior of 2 Samuel 22:3b is very particular,"Thou dost save me". Although it may be referring back to the Lord and the God of my rock. I like the idea of having a list of nine nouns also, so I haven't decided yet. Any comments? Later, Ray |
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5 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | Hank | 20182 | ||
Hi, Ray. It looks as though you have quite a collection of nouns on your hands gleaned from 2 Samuel 22, waiting nervously in the wing, not sure of their fate. Should they be elevated to the lofty status of proper nouns, or must they ever remain among the undistinguished lot of common nouns? I'm gently ribbing, not ridiculing, your dilemma, Ray, for in truth the problem of capitalization regarding names of, pertaining to, or descriptive of, Deity is a knotty one, not only for us laymen who read and study the Bible, but especially for those whose business it is to give us a faithful translation of the Scriptures in modern English. One of the obvious difficulties lies in the fact that God is not consistently called God in the Bible; Jesus is not always called Jesus; the Holy Spirit is not always called the Holy Spirit. So what do the translators do with such nouns as rock, stronghold, door, shepherd, vine, or comforter when they are used in connection with Deity? Of even greater difficulty are some of the prophetic Messianic passages of the Old Testament, e.g. Isaiah 53:3 in which the NKJV capitalizes "Man" but the NASB and NIV do not. So the capitalization question is not an easy one; it varies among different versions..... According to standard English usage guidelines pertaining to pronouns, they are all "common" pronouns, i.e., they have no counterpart for "proper" nouns. The only times pronouns are capitalized in ordinary English usage are when they begin a sentence or when the pronoun is in the first person singular (I). Capitalization of personal pronouns that refer to Deity is a contrivance of certain schools of translation. They usually cite two reasons for doing so. First, they say, it shows reverence for God; and, second, that it benefits the reader by clearly distinguishing divine and human persons referred to in a passage. The King James Bible never capitalized pronouns, nor does the NIV or the RSV. The NASB and NKJV are two that do...... Ray, I can't help but muse on how much easier Bible reading would be for us if our native language was German. In that considerate tongue, they take no chances on getting capitalization right. Every time a noun, any noun, comes along.....Bam! They capitalize it before it has a chance to escape. Sounds almost too good to be true, but it is true. That's the way they do it in Deutschland. --Hank | ||||||
6 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | Ray | 20222 | ||
Hi Hank, Thanks for answering so directly.:) However, since you answered directly from your mailroom, your paragraghs weren't allowed. I hope people read it for it has good information. It sounds like German would be as difficult or as non-helpful as Greek or Hebrew. It would recognize the nouns but the common ones would have to be determined. In English I can choose the "proper" nouns to capitalize. We have to determine for ourselves don't we in this personal religion of ours whether Jesus is the Christ or just a man. I appreciate your observation about Isaiah 53:3 and the difference between the NASB and the NKJ there. Isaiah 53 has a few more nouns that are capitalized in Scripture but not here. I'm thinking of verse two with the "shoot" and a root". I would think that the lower case was chosen because of the "like" that preceeds them. And verse three "like one" from whom men hide their face. I just noticed however, that if One is not capitalized in the NASB it will have one less pronoun than other versions. Maybe the Arm of the Lord has to be revealed? No, I don't think so, but there is enough to reflect on. Perhaps the Navigators would capitalize the word "Message" or even "Our Message", verse one. This can be a very personal book, this Holy Bible that we treasure. I want to continue to learn about the One whom we serve. Later, Ray |
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7 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | kalos | 20229 | ||
Ray: Please do not take this as criticism of yourself, for that is not my intent. But I would really like to know: If you can figure out for yourself which pronouns need to be capitalized, then why cannot other people figure it out for themselves? If you can make these decisions on your own when the translation doesn't capitalize all the pronouns referring to Deity, then why would you or anyone else need capitalization in any given translation? |
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8 | rock or Rock,god or God,savior or Savior | Hos 13:4 | Ray | 20301 | ||
Hi kalos, My "obsession" with capitalization is a work in progress. I have been doing it for over 16 years with many hours of reading and comparing of the Scriptures. Comparing different translations, different copyrights, noticing patterns and recurring themes, trying to be consistent in each book regarding what I capitalized. It has been a study that has brought much to praise God. His word is wonderful. I have been led to many things. I say that this is a work in progress. I'm being led to reconsider some nouns all the time. I thought my work was done years ago, when all of a sudden the NASB had a new copyright and capitalized some new nouns, dropped some more, and I had to start over.:) It is a magnificent obsession, but hopefully we are in an age of computers which can do the work of noting variations in the translations, figuring possibilities of comparisons, all based on the nouns, and pronouns concerning Deity. I think that if that is in God's plan that there are many others out there that are working on it already. Kalos, you may have been disenchanted by my saying in the last post that this is a personal Bible and that other people may capitalize different things. I said that because this is again a work in progress. I don't say that I have it all correct. But capitalization of pronouns of Deity gives honor to God. What I want people to figure out for themselves is that Jesus is more than a man. I want our translators to know that in order to have "everything in order" we need to be consistent in the capitalization of pronouns of Deity. For instance, in John l0:41,42 we can see two pronouns speaking of Him with "this man" in between. "Many came to Him and were saying, 'While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true.' Many believed in Him there." Note: NKJ has it reading Man. Compare those verses with what John had said about "this Man". John 1:26, "John answered them saying, "I baptized in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." Why are translators hesitant to recognize the Deity of Christ? That is the most important information that our churches should be putting forth today. It is what our translations should be interpreting by their capitalizations. How many new translations of today have pronouns capitalized? Did you read Hank's posting where he spoke of the NIV's rendering of a verse we were discussing? We need capitalization in our translations to give us a head start, make it easier for us, and make it less likely to miss any pronouns that should be capitalized. This is especially important for the Messianic Psalms. When we see these Psalms and the fullfillment in Christ we have cause to glorify and praise Him. When we see the pronouns as talking only about David, we miss the message. For my study, I have the totals of Deity pronouns divisible by three in each book that I have completed. In my mind, that is glorifying to a Triune God. There is more to my study than that, but I would think that that would be a good starting goal for a translation. If that is too much like a "code" or "numerology", then don't consider figuring it out for yourself. I believe that it can and will be figured out what pronouns should be capitalized. Kalos, some months ago you were interested in my connection of John 13:13 with Job 36:22. That wasn't a commentary on my part, that was a connection brought about by accurately handling the word of truth, I believe. 2 Tim 2:14,15 Later, Ray |
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