Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107113 | ||
I really did agree with you, Tim. I agreed with you completely. The other comments were concerning other people, who give their reasons for choosing to celebrate Christmas. As I recall, you did not give any reason. You said you do it because you have not been convinced by Scripture that God forbids it. The comments were not made with any but a slim-chance hope of convincing anybody. The chances would be almost the same, I suppose, as trying to change the names of the days of the week. Better to shrug it off or else to rationalize the use of Sunday and Moonday and the others. It is too difficult to change things like that, and no one is convinced it’s worth the effort. We are stuck with some things and we have to live with them. Some things we choose to keep. I would prefer not to say Sunday, but sometimes I do. I would prefer not to celebrate Christmas, and I don’t. There have been massive, concerted efforts in the past to stamp out Christmas, and they have failed. I do not expect that there will be any mass conversions now. Maybe one out of a thousand reading this thread will change their mind. The main reason for my participation here is to comment on the reasons that people give. It seems to me that the reasons are really one or more of these: 1. God said to do it. 2. I thought of it myself. 3. I am going along with what I see others doing. This will sting the ego, but the answer, in every case, is number 3. Someone has quoted Jeremiah: “Thus saith the LORD, ‘Learn not the way of the heathen’”. That is God speaking. Does anyone ask, “Where did I learn about the Christmas?” Does it matter if it was in fact from the pagans? The fact is it does not matter. We will not change. They said to Jeremiah, “As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth”. Jeremiah confesses, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps”. There are forces and pressures, some spiritual, some social, that shape our behavior, and some of us feel called to expose them. It does not matter that some say, “Who are you to judge?” and “Do you think you are better?”. We will simply say, “Thus saith the Lord”. The barbs will sting and we will say like Jeremiah, “Woe is me for my hurt! My wound is grievous. But I said, ‘Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it’”. Thus saith the LORD, “Learn not the way of the heathen”. |
||||||
2 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107114 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! When exactly did the heathen celebrate the birth of Jesus? While some may be able to connect some dots and make some connections between Christmas and the practice of some pagans, the fact remains that Christmas stands on it's own, not as a pagan ritual, but as a celebration of the birth of Christ. It doesn't need to be stamped out, nor does Scripture demand such! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
3 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107120 | ||
The question took me by surprise. Surely there are tons of information on the subject. I did my own study, laboriously, 35 years ago, and was convinced. Today the evidence has mounted, and access to it is easier. Type the words "Christmas" and "origins" into Google, and you get articles like this. Christmas: An Historical Survey Regarding Its Origins and Opposition to It by Kevin Reed “To speak against Christmas observance is considered by many people to be sacrilegious and others as religious fanaticism. After all, how can anyone legitimately oppose such a hallowed institution? … “The purpose of this study is to set forth scriptural reasons for opposing Christmas celebration. … “The ignoble nature of the origins and customs of Christmas can be found in many standard reference sources. … (The facts: God did not say it, Jesus did not do it, the disciples did not do it, no church or Christian individual did it before the Bible record closed. Where did it come from? The pagans started it. The Christians adapted it, and adopted it.) … “The transition from festivals commemorating the birth of a sun god to a celebration ostensibly for the Son of God occurred sometime in the fourth century. Unable to eradicate the heathen celebration of Saturnalia, the Church of Rome, sometime before 336 A.D., designated a Feast of the Nativity to be observed". … The article is at http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/Xmas_ch2.htm |
||||||
4 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107137 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! So, you just proved my point my friend. The pagans were not celebrating the birth of Christ. The 'day' meant something else entirely to them. The 'day' may be the same, but the meaning is different. p.s. - I checked out the article. It claims that it will provide Scriptural reasons for not observing Christmas, but it does not. All it offers is a lot of historical quotes filled with men's opinions about the day. :-) I need Scripture my friend, not speculation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
5 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107151 | ||
That is reasonable, Tim. It may be correct to say they were not. I had thought that might be what you had in mind, but it is hard to cover every possibility. Actually, I think I failed to answer your question altogether. All I was saying is that many others have answered the questions, and the article I cited was only one of many. You say that the author promised scriptural reasons and did not deliver. Yet a quick count showed me that he had over fifty scriptural citations, including those in his footnotes. It is true that his work is a historical review, but he contrasts historical actions of the church with scripture. For example: “This policy (of leaving pagan temples intact) differs greatly from the conduct of the children of God who cut down sacred groves, destroyed the remnants of idolatry, or burned their heathen books in order to make a clean break with pagan ways (Ex. 34:13; Deut. 12:2-4, 29-32; 2Kings 18:4; Acts 19:19)”. You asked: “When exactly did the heathen celebrate the birth of Jesus?” My answer: Tim, I think it is fair to say they are still doing that today. It happened like this. They were worshipping the sun God. The church came in. They said we will let them continue much of what they are doing. But we will change the word “sun” to the word “Son”. I think it is a fair question to ask whether the people had been converted. If not, they were still pagan. They started calling themselves Christian, or they were told to do so. They did not mind changing their names, as long as their lives did not have to change. Is that what Jesus had in mind? Contrast that to the Thessalonians. They turned from idols to serve the living and true God (1 Thess 1:9). One of the defenders of Christmas has said that Paul did not preach against the goddess Diana. The people could use the same temple and artifacts. Just worship Jesus instead. Yes, that is in one of the articles. I note, however, that at Ephesus “many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men”. The church from Rome would not ask the Germans to tear down their temples. Just put the name Jesus over the door. Keep their books. Just replace the name “Saturn” with the name “Son of God”. Keep the dates the same, the activities the same, the articles the same, only change the name. These are historical statements and I am not here to attest to their accuracy. I am only saying that some writers use these to justify a celebration of Christmas. Pagan activities could be Christianized by replacing key words. The practices remained the same. Thus Christians could sing to a tree, as long as the name of the tree had Christ in it. They had never done anything like that in Bible times, but somehow it was OK now. Yet the word says we should “stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our (the apostles’) epistle (2 Thess 2:15). I think if was Pizzarro who said, “We did not come to convert these Indians. We came to take from them their gold”. Nevertheless, it was helpful, in making them loyal subjects of Spain, to have them also adopt the religion of the mother country. I can tell you that my parents were Catholics. The church did not care what kind of life they lived. They had not converted them to anything except loyalty to the church. My parents were pagans, bowing down to statues and to Christmas trees. What more can I say? I must leave this topic. But our God is a gracious God. He told Samuel to allow the people to have a king. It may be he has also said it’s OK to have Christmas. I am sure that some Christians who celebrate Christmas “regard it unto the Lord”. What the heathen and the unbelievers are doing when the celebrate it, I’m not sure. Whether or not they are really celebrating it, I'm not sure. |
||||||
6 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107159 | ||
Greetings Aixen7x4! Thanks for the conversation my friend. I'll just leave me end with two quick points. 1) Worshiping some false god and celebrating the birth of Christ are two totally different things in my mind. :-) I can' speak for everyone, but for me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. 2) Secondly, the author of the article does quote a bunch of Scripture, but none of it had anything to due with celebrating the birth of Christ. It is certainly true that for many in the 'world', Christmas is nothing more than a secular holiday. But, for me, and for many others, it is an opportunity to remember the birth of our Savior. So, unless Scripture forbids me to do so, I will continue to worship Him. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||