Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Taleb | 107048 | ||
Aniset, was it the Christian men or was it the pagans, that began to wear pants instead of robes like Jesus and all the prophets? Jesus and His disciples used to eat with their fingers, as many still do in that part of the world. Is it of Christian or pagan origin to put silverware into our mouths? I have noticed other pagan origins that many Christians observe, and with God’s blessings. Hindus immersion for purification predates John the Baptist. Pre-Moses, only the high priest could enter into the sacred rooms of pagan gods. Deut 12:3 instructs the Jews to break down altars and smash pillars in the false god’s temples. This was pre-first temple days. What did God have Moses place in the “temple”? Sacred rooms which only the high priest could enter, along with altars, pillars. The Jews were warned against making an image of anything, as the pagans did, in Exodus 20:4. Yet, in Exodus 21:8 GOD TOLD MOSES TO MAKE AN IMAGE of a poisonous snake. How pagan!! Worshippers of satan have always used the time of the full moon for their rites - even preMoses. Yet, most of the Jewish festivals(which began AFTER the pagans practiced theirs) are based upon the times of the full moon. Your claim that something that “of pagan origin” is not to be celebrated has way too many holes. Check out the names of the weekdays in any good dictionary and try to find one without a “pagan origin”. SUN day. MOON day, TIW’S day, WODEN’S day, THOR’S day, FRIG’S day, and SATURN’s day. Notice WHO they are named after. Least you believe you should change the days of the week and use Jewish days, their days come from Babylonian days - otherwise known as "pagan". I even appreciate those who call Christmas "X-Mas", because I realize that X stands for Christ, and it has since the days of the early church – or whatever we should call the gathering together of saints, seeing that pagan word “Church” has a pagan origin – the English Celtics’ circle of trees or stones. Merry Christmas, Taleb |
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2 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107050 | ||
What a strange idea! Yet we hear it so often. We have been free to change the types of clothes we wear and our mode of transportation and the silverware we use. Therefore we are also free to invent religious ceremonies or import strange practices into the church. We can take any pagan practice and put an X in front of it and that makes it good for us to do. Since life continues to bring changes, and the accoutrements we use continue to evolve, is there any limit to what we can add or change in the church? There are some who say they celebrate Christmas by recalling what the Bible says about the birth of Christ. That sounds better. The admit that the Lord never asked us to celebrate his birth, but they feel free to do it because he did not prohibit it. Some of us wonder if they will one day decide to all climb trees on Fridays since that is not prohibited either. There is a rumor that the Druids used to do it and some Christians have thought it might be a good idea since Jesus was hung on a tree on such a day. But God has not left it up to us to decide what we should remember and celebrate and do. He tells us what he wants. That is why we remember his death. He said "This do". That is why we preach the Gospel. He said, "Go ... and preach the Gospel". That is why we baptize new believers. He said, " ... baptizing them in the name of the Father ...". Are we free to add other sacraments and celebrations ad infinitum to our liking whether or not the Lord requires them? That is the question. People who celebrate Christmas will likely continue to do so regardless of what we say here. But some of us will let it be known, for what it is worth, that we stopped celebrating Christmas when we found out about the origin of the practice. |
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3 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107064 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! I prefer to climb trees on Tuesdays, since that is my day off! As far as the choice to celebrate Christmas or not goes, I have no problem with your decision not to celebrate it. The only problem I have is with those who condemn me for celebrating - when there is no explict prohibition in Scripture against doing so! I can't speak for others, but I don't view Christmas as a sacrament. :-) It is just a holiday! It may be sacrilige, but I even celebrate the Thanksgiving as well! :-) My practice is simple. If I am commanded to do something in Scripture, I try to do it. If I am commanded in Scripture not to do something, then I try not to do it. In everything else, I try to use Scripture principles and common sense. I know of no Scriptural principle which would indicate that Christ would be upset at me celebrating His birth. Nor, do I know of any common sense reason not to do so. So, until someone can produce a Scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas, I will continue to do so. If you choose not to, that is your right. But, don't pretend that those who don't agree with you on this issue are somehow less spiritual or less Scriptural. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107071 | ||
My brother: I agree with you completely. I view Christmas the same as Sunday. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. What I find interesting is the reasons that people give for what they do, for the way they exercise the freedom that they perceive God has given. Is it wonderful that God has given us this freedom? With it comes a responsibility. I think he says that we should use our freedom to benefit one another. For, brethren, we have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love, serve one another. For myself, I observe Thanksgiving with all my might because I cannot count the scripture passages saying we should give thanks. I do not celebrate birthdays because I do not see it done among God’s people in Scripture. To think of God having a birthday every year, the God who inhabits eternity, seems ludicrous to me. The fact that he became flesh and dwelt among us is a wonder I will never get over, and I ponder it, then entire length of it, every day of my life. Yet a very dear brother of mine used to pray, “From the bottom of my heart I want to say, 'Happy birthday, Jesus'”. I thought “…”. But I never said anything to him. As far as I know I have no right or duty to abridge another man’s freedom. But I think each one of us should question ourselves. Are we doing this because we want to? Or are we doing it because someone other than Christ has foisted it on us. The answer comes perhaps in the activities that constitute our celebration. Why the tree? Why the lights? Why the tinsel? I was once shocked to find myself singing to a tree: “O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree”. I stopped. But I understand that some of my brethren can justify it. If we have reasons for what we do, then they may serve to guard us against the next religious invention. Taleb is correct about the names days of the week, is he not? But we are stuck with them, just as most of us are stuck with the name of the street we live on. How would you like to live at 666 Devil’s Lane? There are some things we may decide to live with. And then there are things we voluntarily take on. It may be because we want to do more and more to please God, I suppose. We need to be careful, I think, that whereas we claim freedom we are actually making ourselves slaves to the ways of the world. Were you a slave when you were called? That shouldn't bother you. However, if you have a chance to become free, take it. But God has not left it up to us to decide what we should remember and celebrate and do. He tells us what he wants. That is why we remember his death. He said "This do". That is why we preach the Gospel. He said, "Go ... and preach the Gospel". That is why we baptize new believers. He said, " ... baptizing them in the name of the Father ...". Are we free to add other sacraments and celebrations ad infinitum to our liking whether or not the Lord requires them? That is the question. Since we have so much freedom, why not use it in the area that God has suggested? Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works. Let's see how inventive we can be in encouraging love and helping out in times of need. |
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5 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107078 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! While I appreciate the sentiment, I'm not sure that you really agree with me 100 percent! :-) Look at the words you use to describe my decision to celebrate Christmas. Words like 'justify'! Words like 'stuck with'! Words like 'slavery'! I don't believe I have to 'justify' celebrating Christmas because I am not violating any command of Scripture in doing so. I don't believe I am 'stuck with' anything. I choose to celebrate my Savior's birth. I don't believe that I am a slave to anything or anyone. Your post, while cordial, is an example of what I was saying before. You make it sound as though choosing not to celebrate Christmas is more spiritual and more Scriptural than choosing to celebrate it. Finally, you wrote: "Since we have so much freedom, why not use it in the area that God has suggested? Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works. Let's see how inventive we can be in encouraging love and helping out in times of need." This seems to imply that if I celebrate Christmas I am not doing these things. :-) If there were a Scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas, I would not do so. But, since no one has yet been able to provide a single Scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas, I will continue to do so. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107113 | ||
I really did agree with you, Tim. I agreed with you completely. The other comments were concerning other people, who give their reasons for choosing to celebrate Christmas. As I recall, you did not give any reason. You said you do it because you have not been convinced by Scripture that God forbids it. The comments were not made with any but a slim-chance hope of convincing anybody. The chances would be almost the same, I suppose, as trying to change the names of the days of the week. Better to shrug it off or else to rationalize the use of Sunday and Moonday and the others. It is too difficult to change things like that, and no one is convinced it’s worth the effort. We are stuck with some things and we have to live with them. Some things we choose to keep. I would prefer not to say Sunday, but sometimes I do. I would prefer not to celebrate Christmas, and I don’t. There have been massive, concerted efforts in the past to stamp out Christmas, and they have failed. I do not expect that there will be any mass conversions now. Maybe one out of a thousand reading this thread will change their mind. The main reason for my participation here is to comment on the reasons that people give. It seems to me that the reasons are really one or more of these: 1. God said to do it. 2. I thought of it myself. 3. I am going along with what I see others doing. This will sting the ego, but the answer, in every case, is number 3. Someone has quoted Jeremiah: “Thus saith the LORD, ‘Learn not the way of the heathen’”. That is God speaking. Does anyone ask, “Where did I learn about the Christmas?” Does it matter if it was in fact from the pagans? The fact is it does not matter. We will not change. They said to Jeremiah, “As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth”. Jeremiah confesses, “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps”. There are forces and pressures, some spiritual, some social, that shape our behavior, and some of us feel called to expose them. It does not matter that some say, “Who are you to judge?” and “Do you think you are better?”. We will simply say, “Thus saith the Lord”. The barbs will sting and we will say like Jeremiah, “Woe is me for my hurt! My wound is grievous. But I said, ‘Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it’”. Thus saith the LORD, “Learn not the way of the heathen”. |
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7 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107114 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! When exactly did the heathen celebrate the birth of Jesus? While some may be able to connect some dots and make some connections between Christmas and the practice of some pagans, the fact remains that Christmas stands on it's own, not as a pagan ritual, but as a celebration of the birth of Christ. It doesn't need to be stamped out, nor does Scripture demand such! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107120 | ||
The question took me by surprise. Surely there are tons of information on the subject. I did my own study, laboriously, 35 years ago, and was convinced. Today the evidence has mounted, and access to it is easier. Type the words "Christmas" and "origins" into Google, and you get articles like this. Christmas: An Historical Survey Regarding Its Origins and Opposition to It by Kevin Reed “To speak against Christmas observance is considered by many people to be sacrilegious and others as religious fanaticism. After all, how can anyone legitimately oppose such a hallowed institution? … “The purpose of this study is to set forth scriptural reasons for opposing Christmas celebration. … “The ignoble nature of the origins and customs of Christmas can be found in many standard reference sources. … (The facts: God did not say it, Jesus did not do it, the disciples did not do it, no church or Christian individual did it before the Bible record closed. Where did it come from? The pagans started it. The Christians adapted it, and adopted it.) … “The transition from festivals commemorating the birth of a sun god to a celebration ostensibly for the Son of God occurred sometime in the fourth century. Unable to eradicate the heathen celebration of Saturnalia, the Church of Rome, sometime before 336 A.D., designated a Feast of the Nativity to be observed". … The article is at http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/Xmas_ch2.htm |
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9 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107137 | ||
Greetings Aixen7z4! So, you just proved my point my friend. The pagans were not celebrating the birth of Christ. The 'day' meant something else entirely to them. The 'day' may be the same, but the meaning is different. p.s. - I checked out the article. It claims that it will provide Scriptural reasons for not observing Christmas, but it does not. All it offers is a lot of historical quotes filled with men's opinions about the day. :-) I need Scripture my friend, not speculation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Aixen7z4 | 107151 | ||
That is reasonable, Tim. It may be correct to say they were not. I had thought that might be what you had in mind, but it is hard to cover every possibility. Actually, I think I failed to answer your question altogether. All I was saying is that many others have answered the questions, and the article I cited was only one of many. You say that the author promised scriptural reasons and did not deliver. Yet a quick count showed me that he had over fifty scriptural citations, including those in his footnotes. It is true that his work is a historical review, but he contrasts historical actions of the church with scripture. For example: “This policy (of leaving pagan temples intact) differs greatly from the conduct of the children of God who cut down sacred groves, destroyed the remnants of idolatry, or burned their heathen books in order to make a clean break with pagan ways (Ex. 34:13; Deut. 12:2-4, 29-32; 2Kings 18:4; Acts 19:19)”. You asked: “When exactly did the heathen celebrate the birth of Jesus?” My answer: Tim, I think it is fair to say they are still doing that today. It happened like this. They were worshipping the sun God. The church came in. They said we will let them continue much of what they are doing. But we will change the word “sun” to the word “Son”. I think it is a fair question to ask whether the people had been converted. If not, they were still pagan. They started calling themselves Christian, or they were told to do so. They did not mind changing their names, as long as their lives did not have to change. Is that what Jesus had in mind? Contrast that to the Thessalonians. They turned from idols to serve the living and true God (1 Thess 1:9). One of the defenders of Christmas has said that Paul did not preach against the goddess Diana. The people could use the same temple and artifacts. Just worship Jesus instead. Yes, that is in one of the articles. I note, however, that at Ephesus “many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men”. The church from Rome would not ask the Germans to tear down their temples. Just put the name Jesus over the door. Keep their books. Just replace the name “Saturn” with the name “Son of God”. Keep the dates the same, the activities the same, the articles the same, only change the name. These are historical statements and I am not here to attest to their accuracy. I am only saying that some writers use these to justify a celebration of Christmas. Pagan activities could be Christianized by replacing key words. The practices remained the same. Thus Christians could sing to a tree, as long as the name of the tree had Christ in it. They had never done anything like that in Bible times, but somehow it was OK now. Yet the word says we should “stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our (the apostles’) epistle (2 Thess 2:15). I think if was Pizzarro who said, “We did not come to convert these Indians. We came to take from them their gold”. Nevertheless, it was helpful, in making them loyal subjects of Spain, to have them also adopt the religion of the mother country. I can tell you that my parents were Catholics. The church did not care what kind of life they lived. They had not converted them to anything except loyalty to the church. My parents were pagans, bowing down to statues and to Christmas trees. What more can I say? I must leave this topic. But our God is a gracious God. He told Samuel to allow the people to have a king. It may be he has also said it’s OK to have Christmas. I am sure that some Christians who celebrate Christmas “regard it unto the Lord”. What the heathen and the unbelievers are doing when the celebrate it, I’m not sure. Whether or not they are really celebrating it, I'm not sure. |
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11 | Christmas | Jer 10:1 | Morant61 | 107159 | ||
Greetings Aixen7x4! Thanks for the conversation my friend. I'll just leave me end with two quick points. 1) Worshiping some false god and celebrating the birth of Christ are two totally different things in my mind. :-) I can' speak for everyone, but for me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. 2) Secondly, the author of the article does quote a bunch of Scripture, but none of it had anything to due with celebrating the birth of Christ. It is certainly true that for many in the 'world', Christmas is nothing more than a secular holiday. But, for me, and for many others, it is an opportunity to remember the birth of our Savior. So, unless Scripture forbids me to do so, I will continue to worship Him. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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