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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Sir Pent | 20790 | ||
Conrary view, Experience ...................... Dear Lionstrong, You said that my definition of "rational" was acceptable, so let's take a look at it. I have defined rationality as the ability to learn or to process information in an orderly manner. This is a pretty standard definition according to dictionaries. Now let's look at some historical facts about animals. There was once a scientist named Pavlov. He had a bunch of dogs that he did an experiment with. He would ring a bell, and then feed them. He did this over a period of time, and noticed a change in the dogs. They associated the bell sound with food, which was demonstrated by salivation. When Pavlov would ring the bell, the dog's mouths would water even before he would feed them. This was not INSTINCT. A wild dog's mouth doesn't water when it hears a bell. These specific dogs were able to PROCESS INFORMATION that they received to LEARN that the food followed the bell. A much more advanced experiment was performed with the famous gorilla named, Koko. She was able to actually LEARN sign language and was able to communicate with her trainers and visitors. She was able to PROCESS INFORMATION not only that she was specifically taught, but was also able to combine concepts in order to learn things that were not taught to her. Her story has been chronicled and documented in numerous books and documentaries. I assume that you were unaware of these events, and share them so that you may be better informed of the scientifically proven exhibitions of animal intellegence. However, you can observe these things on your own as well. If you or someone you know has a dog that can "sit", "lie down", or "roll over" on command, that is also a good example. These are not INSTINCTS. Wild dogs do not understand a human voice command, much less obey it. These behaviors must be LEARNED, and that shows "rationality". This all being said, you did earlier in this thread, quote several good Bible verses, which seem to say that animals are not rational. I would suggest that the Bible is using the word "rational" to mean something beyond what the dictionary defines the word to mean. This would be similar to when Jesus said, "I am the Truth", meaning more than just being a fact and real. |
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2 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | charis | 20854 | ||
Dear Sir, Greetings in Jesus' name! I have enjoyed going over this thread. If I may, I would like to put forth a few thoughts. As an animal lover, and one who is known to be 'good with animals,' I must say that it is true that animals in general (and pets in particular!) seem to have thought processes higher than 'non-rational' beasts. Indeed, their ability to learn (conditioned response) goes beyond stupid. However, by only arguing about the term 'rational,' we do not get to the point. I have been teaching children for 25 years. One of the mains thing that shows that a child is no longer an 'infant' is that (hopefully) pre-kindergarten 'leap' of reasoning. This the difference between men and animals. In our school, we have to teach the parents how to teach their children to make this leap. That is, the ability to hear, accept, and perform three distinct commands. (in these days, 'requests' :-)) Example: Find your sister, tell her to start the dishwasher, then bring me a cup of water. This is amazingly complex, and impossible with animals. (and not because of the lack of voice or hands!) If you watch a sheepdog do its work, it is fantastic! But...it is all conditioned response, and obedience to various commands, voice, hand signals and body language. It does not involve reasoning. There is definitely something different about man. Let's not argue about terminology! :-) Blessings in Christ Jesus, charis |
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3 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | Lionstrong | 20873 | ||
2 Tim 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Thanks Charis, Actually, I thought I was doing pretty well about not discussing the meaning of words... this time! Any synonym for rational would have done. So my argument has continued to be that animals are not (fill in the blank). This is the sole possession of God, angels and men. An evangelist (now with the Lord) used a graph that I thought was helpful. He drew a horizontal line, and above the line he wrote God. Below the line he wrote creation. He said that below the line we are as much a creature as the rocks. This was the line of creation. Then He drew another line, the line of the personal. Now, what we have above the line is God, men and angels, and below the line everything else. In terms of preaching the Gospel to men of today’s culture, they must understand that their identity is upward not downward. The dignity and greatness of man is that he is made in the image of God. And the image of God is rationality or reason, discursive knowledge or whatever words you want to use to describe real thought. This, animals do not possess. Peace, Lionstrong |
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4 | Animal Intelligence Isn't Rational | Gen 3:1 | charis | 20877 | ||
Dear Lionstrong, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Well said. Now if I can only figure out how my Papillon, Sophie, can con Mom, Pop, and Kid out of three dinners without the others knowing she was already fed! I know it wasn't the sin in her life. :-) Also, though I am giving this thing fully unto the Lord, it would be nice if she could warm my lap eternally. :-) Blessings in Christ Jesus, charis |
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