Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | RWC | 153948 | ||
Although this discussion is now quite old, with only a couple of additional repsonses in the last several years, I would like to propose a different point of view for your response. I do not think that this concept is "mine" (unique to my way of thinking), but I did not see it in this discussion and I think it would be worthy of consideration. I do believe that angelic beings and human beings are to be considered as distinct from the rest of the animated beings that God has created. Angelic beings and human beings do have at least one characteristic that makes them different than the animals, but it is not their "rationality." I think it is their "will" (the ability to make choices of right and wrong). It is this unique God-given ability that makes humans and angels morally accountable and which keeps the rest of the animal kingdom outside of that accountability. It is this unique God-given ability that makes humans and angels fall into the category of "persons" and which disqualifies the rest of the animal kingdom from being thought of this way. It is this unique God-given ability that makes humans (and angels?) to be uniquely created "in the image of God." Does this point of view not fit better with both the larger picture presented in Scripture and with the reality of the world in which we live? |
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2 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | kalos | 154040 | ||
Created in the Image of God '...man is created in God’s image. Genesis 1:26-27 says “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” 'What this means, is that both man and woman are created in the image of God, in that they are greater than all the other creations as they, like God, have a mind, will, intellect, emotions, and moral capacity. Animals do not possess a moral capacity, and do not possess an immaterial component like mankind does. Genesis tells us that when man was created by God, God breathed the “breath of life” into man. No other creation is described this way, and that “breath of life” is the spiritual component that man alone possesses. God created man to have a relationship with Him; man is the only creation designed for that purpose, and that “breath of life” is evidence of that. 'That said, man and woman are only patterned after the image of God—they are not tiny “carbon copies” of God, and the fact that there are men and women does not require that God have male and female features, or that God be a woman. Remember, being made in the image of God has nothing to do with physical characteristics. 'We know that God is a spiritual being, and does not possess physical characteristics.' ____________________ To read more go to: www.gotquestions.org/God-male-female.html |
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3 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | RWC | 154072 | ||
Hi there, I would agree with you that humans have "a mind, will, intellect, emotions, and moral capacity." I guess the question that is being discussed (or at least that I was trying to ask) is "how much, if any, of those attributes can be found in the other animals that God created?" or to put it another way, "Are any of those attributes unique to humans?". I am proposing that, among the earthly creations, we have a unique moral capacity because we have been uniquely created with a volitional capacity and that this ability to exercise will is the one thing that separates humanity from the rest of the animal kingdom. Lionstrong has proposed, if I understand him correctly, that humans are the only earthly creature with an ability to think or understand (or learn? or reason?) and that this intellectual ability alone is what separates humanity from all other creatures (earthly or otherwise?) and is the one thing that makes us to be in the image of God. How have you come to understand this? Would you suggest that any or all of those attributes are unique to humans? A second comment in response to your post, if I may. You wrote: "God breathed the 'breath of life' into man. No other creation is described this way, and that 'breath of life' is the spiritual component that man alone possesses." You are correct to say that "No other creation is described this way," but I would suggest that you are assuming too much if you conclude from this verse that this _must_ be unique to humanity. I believe that this would be called an "argument from silence" and it is a very weak position to hold. The creation of man is the only creative work of God described in any detail. Should we also assume then that none of the rest of the creatures that God made are created from "the dust of the ground?" I think you would agree that this would be assuming too much. As I see it, _all_ living things on earth (plant, animal, or otherwise (ie. even bacteria and viruses)) are made from the same basic building blocks ("the dust of the ground"). As well, they _all_ break back down into those same basic building blocks ("return to dust") when they cease to be alive. God is the Giver of life. He has not given that uniquely to humanity. We are, I believe, unique among God's earthly creatures, but I would suggest that it is not because we are "living beings" (Ge. 2.7). Looking forward to your response. Have a good day! Bob |
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4 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | mark d seyler | 154075 | ||
Hi Bob, Are you suggesting, basically, that it is the ability to choose between right and wrong that is unique to humans? Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | RWC | 154078 | ||
Yes. That is my point. (I would also suggest that angels have this same ability.) What think you? |
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6 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | mark d seyler | 154082 | ||
Hi Bob, My wife's cats seem to know what is and is not allowed for them to do. Some of them virtually never do what we have told them not to. Some of them seem to look for opportunities to get away with it. And some would give us that belligerent (sp.) look, and do it right in front of our faces. Anyway, my point is, they seem to be making choices. They consider what they want to do, and consider whether there will be a negative consequence. But they do something else, as well, that is very interesting. They will interpose themselves in front of the others, to defend the other from harm (real or perceived). They will put themselves at risk to help another. They will allow themselves to be hurt by a baby or small child, perceiving that to defend themselves would mean hurting a creature that did not mean harm, and that should not be hurt. This seems to show very high functioning on their part, even to the point of choosing right and wrong. They choose to suffer rather than to inflict suffering on the innocent. But they don't accord me the same treatment. They know that I should know better, and our play can get pretty rough! Are you aware of any scripture that clarifies this for us? Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | RWC | 154128 | ||
Perhaps I need to clarify what I mean when I talk about volitional ability, or at least what makes it distinct for humans. Yes, I agree with you that animals make choices: (lay in the sun or lay in the shade; fetch the ball or not; climb on the furniture or not, etc. etc). But those kinds of choices that animals make (including whether to obey a master's directive or not) have to do with simply following their desires. Unfortunately, we humans usually make our choices in exactly the same way. *But* we have the ability not to do that, and animals, as I understand it, do not have that ability. For example, humans have the ability to choose to go on a hunger strike (a popular form of protest from a generation ago). We can choose to deny ourselves food. An animal cannot do that. If an animal is hungry (and healthy!), it will go hunting for food until it finds it or it will die trying to find it. Now, having said that, I have heard of animals starving themselves to death. But it was not because of "a choice" that they were making, it was because of a physical problem (ie. disease) or an emotional problem (ie. broken heart). Animals have many and varied characteristics and qualities built into them by God that we would call instinctive repsonses. When we train animals (or try to!), we are trying shape those characteristics so that they get expressed in ways that are acceptable to us. We do that by creating (or using) a desire in the animal that is (hopefully) greater than its natural unfettered desire. A simple example might be seen in paper training a puppy. Its desire is to relieve itself. We try to shape that desire so that the animal has a greater desire to _avoid_ punishment and _receive_ affection by relieving itself in the appropriate place. I guess my point was (and is) that it seems to me that animals do have emotions (although not the full range of emotions as do humans), and that they do have an ability to think (and yes, even rational thinking in some cases, although certainly not to the same degree as humans can), but that they do not have a volitional ability (an ability to choose something other than what they desire). I hope this helps to clarify what I mean. And as for Scriptural support for this view, I do not have a nice systematic list of verses. But it does not seem to me to be contrary to the Word of God. (I do still have to go back and consider a couple of verses quoted by Lionstrong earlier in this discussion.) Have a good day. Bob |
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8 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | mark d seyler | 154130 | ||
Hi Bob, I would like to bring this discussion to a scriptural level. I just don't see where the Bible gives us much to go on regarding what the exact differences between man and animals are. We can simply share our observations, but that does not add to a Bible Study Forum. I could say that we all do what we desire to do. We, like the animals, have many and sometimes conflicting desires. We sometimes sublimate one desire in favor of another. I deny my desire to speed, because I desire to spend my money on other things than paying a fine. My cat ignores its desire to jump on my dinner table because its desire to live in peace with me is greater. What desire does the dolphin serve who pushes a swimmer to shore, or who attaches a mine to an enemy ship? We don't know. We don't even really understand ourselves very well, much less the animals. If we are to discuss the differences between man and animals, let us keep to what the scriptures tell us, and seek to understand that. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. This verse tells us two things. Man was made in the image of God (which is not said of the animals), and man was given dominion over the animals. Psa 104:21 The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God. 22 The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens. 23 Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening. 24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. 25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. 26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. 27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. The animals look to God for their food. Can you think of other scriptures that we can use to give us a greater understanding of the animal's place and nature? Love in Christ, Mark |
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9 | Distiction in "will" not "rationality" | Gen 3:1 | DocTrinsograce | 154161 | ||
How about... For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21) In Him, Doc |
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