Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221658 | ||
Hi Hoth Thank you for your reply to my answer. You bring up some very good points and it is a pleasure to discuss them w/you, and it is good that you do not doubt the validity of God’s Word. It is very important to pray for wisdom and guidance when we read the Bible, for to many, the wisdom is hidden and they make presumptuous interpretations. The scriptural reference for this statement is 1Cor 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." And I myself have found many apparent contradictions that are found out through further study to be truth. But I will not dwell on that for now. You wrote,"However, when I read what appears to be a contradiction in the Bible I realize that I am making a wrong interpretation" First off, you state your belief as "the beginning" being the start of eternity. Again, I think this is just a drawback to the frailty of the human mind. It is a defect, but I believe God has reasons for installing it. Our mind wants to quantify the state of eternity in order to comprehend it. Yet, eternity exists outside of time, so it cannot have a beginning. God exists in eternity past, and in eternity future. If there was a beginning to eternity past, then what was before that? If there is a beginning, then there should be an end to eternity, right? And what happens after eternity? If eternity has a beginning and end, does it also have an age? If we remove the parameters of time out of the equation, it is much simpler to imagine. You also wrote, "Since the planet earth and the universe existed prior to the light of verse 3, they also existed prior to the first day. My feeling is that this is misinterpretation on your part, since the sea, the earth, and its fruits were created on the third day (v. 9–13) Though you understand that God would have had to create paths of light, millions of light years long, in order to have the stars as far as they are and yet be visible to us, well then, why would you question the light that came into being when God spoke, "Light, Be!" Would this light not be independant of the sun and stars ? Please see Rev 21:23, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." also Rev 22:5, "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." And this is similar to eternity being independant of time, it will exist beyond time. And this is similar to our spirit being independant of our flesh, we will exist beyond our flesh. Now I must apologize for being so lengthy, I have exceeded the max number of characters and will continue in next post, til then, (o: |
||||||
2 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221659 | ||
Now, to continue with my post, I must say, "If I had more time I could have made this shorter" Part 2: When Adam's sin brought death into the world: Yes. That would include vegetation and animals as well. Death is death, and there is no death in paradise, because that would mean suffering a loss. Please see Rev 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." You ask me for Scripture to support answers to your questions, but this is all I can do for now. God does not always give what we want, but He gives us all we need. You say that it appears to you that life may have existed prior to the first day but can you support that? I do not believe there is a parallel to this statement in Scripture The Bible does support itself, It says "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Now, in order for there to be life before the first day, would there not have to be a contradiction in there somewhere? Looking closely, there is not a gap, but there is a division. If you read verses 3-5 closely, you can see that light was created on the first day. Then, looking back, verses 1 and 2 give us a sort of prelude to the story of creation, and prepares us for the important matter that follows. Just as chapter 2 is not another story of creation, but it is an appendix to the story that begins in chapter 1, and explains in greater detail the part of history which relates to mankind. God Bless you Hoth, I hope that things can get clearer in your mind. I know that mine is often foggy but at that point I do not depend on my physical sense and just trust God to be true to His Word. keliy |
||||||
3 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | HOTH | 221699 | ||
Hi Keliy, You wrote, “If we remove the parameters of time out of the equation, it is much simpler to imagine” and “It is a defect, but I believe God has reasons for installing it.” When I said that “in the beginning” was from the beginning of eternity, I get that eternity really had no beginning. However, the scriptures speak of “in the beginning,” “the alpha and the omega,” etc. God did install units of time for us, like days, seasons, years, etc. If God did this, then by its very nature it cannot be defective. While God inspires what is written, but it is written by man for human understanding. I wrote, "Since the planet earth and the universe existed prior to the light of verse 3, they also existed prior to the first day. You responded, “My feeling is that this is misinterpretation on your part, since the sea, the earth, and its fruits were created on the third day (v. 9–13)” I’m afraid you are comparing apples and oranges here. Verse 10 is clearly speaking of the “dry land” as “earth,” not the planet earth of verse 1. In regards to the lights from stars which are millions of light-years away, many not visible to man on earth, it is not a matter of God creating these lights, but how He created them. Did He do it instantly or did He create the stars and their light actually took millions of light-years to reach the earth or to be visible to the Hubble? I see no indication in scripture that the light of the first day was that of God’s glory as spoken of in Revelation. Please notice that the light in verse 3 was separated from the darkness. How did God do this? By having the light shine upon the earth as it rotated and thus making days of 12 hours of light and 12 hours of darkness. Now notice that the light of the sun in verse 14 is shinning on the earth from the same direction with the same result of separating the days from the nights. The logical explanation is it is the same light coming for the same source. You wrote, “When Adam's sin brought death into the world: Yes. That would include vegetation and animals as well.” However, you were unable to provide scripture for this idea. Here is one to consider: Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-“ Death spread to all men, not plants and animals. Plants and animals do not sin and there is no reason to believe that plants and animals were eternal prior to sin entering into the world. You wrote: “Now, in order for there to be life before the first day, would there not have to be a contradiction in there somewhere? Looking closely, there is not a gap, but there is a division. If you read verses 3-5 closely, you can see that light was created on the first day. Then, looking back, verses 1 and 2 give us a sort of prelude to the story of creation, and prepares us for the important matter that follows.” How do you explain Satan appearing in the Garden of Eden, since under your argument neither Satan nor any of the angels could have existed prior to the first day? Genesis 1:2 states there was darkness over the surface of the deep, that is, the waters which covered the earth. It does not say that there was darkness anywhere else. In fact, God had made a “thick darkness its swaddling band.” (Job 38: 9) The term “swaddling band” would imply that there was light outside of this band, otherwise it wouldn’t be a band. Why would God place a “thick darkness” over the waters of the deep on the first day if the first thing that God did was to “let there be light”? You have rightly pointed out (John 1: 1-3) that God and the Word (Jesus) were “in the beginning” and that all things were made through Jesus. If “in the beginning” is the same as the first day of creation, then NOTHING had been created prior to that day. Yet, when the cornerstone of the earth was laid, “the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.” (Job 38:7) Were the “morning stars” and “all the sons of God” created that same day, but before the earth? The theory that “in the beginning” was on the first day is contradicted by scripture and it is clear that the universe and planet earth existed prior to the first day. I think many believe that accepting that fact is somehow an endorsement of evolution. It is not. We need to read the scriptures to determine the truth and not the truth as we would like it to be. I would be very willing to examine and consider any scripture that clearly contradicts any of my conclusions. Thanks Keliy for your thoughts. You have presented them as well as anyone could and they have been very helpful to me as I have pondered this question. Hoth |
||||||
4 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221706 | ||
Hi Hoth, Very good post, I commend you for the time and effort you put into this. Ya know, when I said our human mind had a defect, I did not mean that God made a mistake. -Of course our minds are not perfect, but you get the drift. I am not going to continue to bring you Scripture verses on this because your understanding is much deeper than mine on this subject. But hey, you asked so I offered my understanding. If you say that it is clear that our planet existed prior to the first day, then you can go with that without any rebuttal from me. But, like I said, since you asked,... |
||||||
5 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | DocTrinsograce | 221707 | ||
Hi, keily... As I have read your discussion with HOTH, I was mindful of something John Calvin wrote. It took me a little while to track it down. Calvin wrote of "the darkness which overspread the minds of the philosophers." Although I could not remember the words, the image stayed with me. He wrote, "they sought for a complete edifice among ruins, and for beautiful order in the midst of confusion." Picture that... people studying an old, collapsed ruin, like a medieval castle. They do not understand that it is a ruin, but imagine it to be a proper structure. The broken walls do not make sense to them, so they develop theories to explain them as having been designed just as they appear. Without special revelation (i.e., the Bible), we cannot understand that when we look at humanity, we are seeing a complete distortion. (The imago Dei is hardly discernible. This is, at least in part, what we mean when we speak of total depravity.) If we do not start with special revelation, we cannot reason to a proper conclusion. We will get it wrong and utterly confused every time. In Him, Doc |
||||||
6 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221709 | ||
Thank you Doc, for a fine response to this puzzle. I think you and Calvin are on the right track, since none of us would rationally attempt to work a mixture of truth and error into our theories, at least without attempting to conceal our own errors. So, philisophical discussions do not fit well on this forum since there are many who still prefer their own suppositions above the truth of God. Blessings to you on this Lord's day, keliy |
||||||
7 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | DocTrinsograce | 221717 | ||
Dear keliy, I was not being critical of philosophy, and certainly not of rationality -- nor was John Calvin in the passage I cited. Philosophy, when it is the handmaiden of theology, is a valuable servant. Rationality, although tainted by sin, is a communicable attribute of God; i.e., it is a divine attribute that humans share (to a certain degree) with their Creator. Let me see if I can articulate what I was trying to say: A syllogism is an argument in which the proposition is inferred from the premises. No matter how sound the deductive process itself, if the premises are flawed, the conclusion will be wrong. The Scriptures instruct us about two kinds of revelation: general revelation is available to all men through what the old theologians called "the light of nature" (cf Romans 1:19); special revelation is the Word of God (Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 1:1-2). Anthropology -- the study of the nature of man -- is both a subject of theology and philosophy. However, without the underpinnings of special revelation, it cannot arrive at truthful conclusions. Without the explicit revelation of creation and the fall, man cannot really make heads or tails of himself. Man sees a ruin, and thinks it is a castle. Theological anthropology, on the other hand, with the benefit of special revelation, makes the nature of man is clear. We understand what the castle was built to look like, and that what is before us is a ruin. The application is this: If we start with what God reveals in His word, we can arrive at reasonable conclusions. If we make His word servant to our reason, we arrive at silly conclusions. Like a few that I have read from the author of this thread. In Him, Doc |
||||||
8 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221719 | ||
Thanks doc, for clearing that up. Call me cynical, but it is I who am somewhat critical against scientists. Philosophers, geologists, etc. I have had times when they have been like thorns in my side so I think they are overrated as a profession. I hold no grudge against any personally, of course. There is just too much garbage being taught as fact in schools and in media such as PBS that it has left a bad taste in my mouth. My apologies to the profession, keliy |
||||||